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What's It Like Living In An Officially Atheistic Country?

Mon Feb 13, 2012 2:57 AM EST
us, religion, china, war, death, france, murder, north-korea, christianity, freedom, constitution, ethics, cuba, atheism, revolution, facts, morality, values, atheist, soviet-union, castro, stalin, mao, devastation, religious-persecution, of-religion
By Socrates1
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I think it's time to take a look at some facts on how atheists treat religious folk once they seize the levers of power.  Unlike some, I won't be including, for example, Buddhists as atheists, although some categorize them as such, and than suggest that atheists are all the same. In other words, this article is not a comparison between "all religions", as if the defects of one can be automatically assigned to all others, but rather a simple examination of how the State governs in nations which are officially atheist.

The first nation, certainly in Europe, that proclaimed itself as being officially atheist was post-Revolutionary France, a policy which lasted for about 7 months, but what a 7 months it was!  Most of us know it as the "Reign of Terror", which lasted just a little bit longer, and which was instigated and propagated by those most tolerant of advocates of logic and reason otherwise know as atheists.  Atheists should take pride in how efficiently the leaders were able to butcher nobles and citizens alike while at the same time attempting to eradicate any vestiges of Christianity.  One might take a moment to reflect on the difference between the rebellious North American Colonies who later formed a nation built on their Christian principles and the revolutionary French elements who descended into an orgy of blood letting that only came to an end when Robespierre himself was guillotined.  Not bad for a first attempt by a group of atheists who proclaimed "Liberty Equality Fraternity ".

After that experience it took quite a while before anyone dared to experiment once again with declaring atheism as the official state "religion".  Atheists need not despair, as all was not lost, and thanks to the Russian Revolution the world had yet another chance to see the tolerance exhibited by those who wished to kill God once and for all.  Although the establishment of the Soviet State was to have much more far-reaching consequences, I would be remiss here if I failed to mention little Albania, which began to practice religious persecution in 1912, escalated its severity around 1920, and reached full flower after World War II, with the establishment of a Communist regime.  Once again, many were tortured or killed, and blasphemy, defined by articulating any kind of religious belief, was punishable by law.

Somewhat surprising to me, I found that Mexico also had a brief taste of how tolerant an atheistic State can be.  Suffice it to say that butchery, from both sides, was the result, although I am unable to find little on this particular time period in their history.  Wikipedia is my primary source, and thus I hesitate to say much more than I already have.

It is perhaps the "free" Communist States which might provide the most notable of examples on how truly tolerant an atheist can be.  Once again, natheists (new atheists) should take pride in the focused approach exhibited by their brethren in attempting to establish an entire nation no longer under the yoke of any kind of religious belief system.  Hundreds of thousands died for no other reason than being a leader or a member of the Orthodox Church.  The good news, of course, is that millions died for other reasons which caused them to be labeled as enemies of the State and thus the butchery was much more evenly divided thus proving the unbiased nature of the atheists charged with securing the State against its enemies.  The mind becomes numb when considering that this Atheist Leader of an officially Atheist country presided over the deaths of millions of his own citizens.  In his defense, one must realize that the life of one individual has little worth in comparison to the truly great needs of the rest of the citizenry.  

Now I realize there are those who attempt to avoid the implications by either denying the correlation or by suggesting one compare the total number of deaths which they believe can be assigned to "religion" versus those assigned to atheism, but I find neither suggestion compelling.  The first is a non-starter as we have both the leader and the state officially proclaiming themselves as atheist and against all forms of religious beliefs.  In terms of the second suggestion, I find that accurate comparisons are not only difficult, but essentially meaningless in that the contention by natheists is that religion is the cause of such pograms, and thus the simple fact that these purges did take place in the Soviet Union proves that claim to be false.

By this time I would assume that only the most die-hard natheist needs more evidence, but, if only for them, I continue to provide the evidence.  Virtually all Communist countries were officially atheist (I say virtually in case one might have slipped through my fingers.), and quite surprisingly it seems that their records, in terms of tolerance and protection of individual liberties, though not quite as bad as Stalin's in sheer numbers, are nothing to sneeze at.  A great accounting can be found here, a site which I have no doubt will be vilified by the first atheist who decides to click on it, but the numbers are there for those who choose to avail themselves of the information.

So, let's review.  Atheists suggest that if only we would submit to their leadership the world would be a much better place.  It is those dastardly Christians who have messed things up from time immemorial, and isn't it time we lay waste to their self-righteous system of tyranny?  Well.  I'd have to say that the record of atheists just isn't that good and I didn't even go into "the rest of the story".  I like my individual rights....how about you?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Socrates1

Reality can be a tough pill to swallow.

  • 4 votes
#1 - Mon Feb 13, 2012 2:58 AM EST
Grisham

*sigh*

I said I wasn’t going to respond to your blind rhetoric, but I’m going to this one time.

certainly in Europe, that proclaimed itself as being officially atheist was post-Revolutionary France, a policy which lasted for about 7 months, but what a 7 months it was! Most of us know it as the "Reign of Terror", which lasted just a little bit longer, and which was instigated and propagated by those most tolerant of advocates of logic and reason otherwise know as atheists.

Wrong and if you knew anything about history or read your own links instead of trying to demonize atheists in your personal crusade, you’d know that.

From your own link to the Reign of Terror:

They also unleashed the bloody Reign of Terror (“la Terreur”), a 10-month period in which suspected enemies of the revolution were guillotined by the thousands. Many of the killings were carried out under orders from Robespierre, who dominated the draconian Committee of Public Safety until his own execution on July 28, 1794. His death marked the beginning of the Thermidorian Reaction, a moderate phase in which the French people revolted against the Reign of Terror’s excesses.

From Wiki:

Robespierre's desire for revolutionary change was not limited to the political realm. He sought to instill a spiritual resurgence in the French nation based on his Deist beliefs. Accordingly, on 7 May 1794, Robespierre had a decree passed by the Convention that established an official religion, the Cult of the Supreme Being. The notion of the Supreme Being was based on ideas that Jean-Jacques Rousseau had outlined in The Social Contract. A nationwide "Festival of the Supreme Being" was held on 8 June (which was also the Christian holiday of Pentecost). The festivities in Paris were held in the Champ de Mars, which was renamed the Champ de la Réunion ("Field of Reunion") for that day. This was most likely in honor of the Champ de Mars Massacre where the Republicans first rallied against the power of the Crown.[41] Robespierre, as President of the Convention, walked first in the festival procession and delivered a speech in which he emphasised his concept of a Supreme Being:

Is it not He whose immortal hand, engraving on the heart of man the code of justice and equality, has written there the death sentence of tyrants? Is it not He who, from the beginning of time, decreed for all the ages and for all peoples liberty, good faith, and justice? He did not create kings to devour the human race. He did not create priests to harness us, like vile animals, to the chariots of kings and to give to the world examples of baseness, pride, perfidy, avarice, debauchery and falsehood. He created the universe to proclaim His power. He created men to help each other, to love each other mutually, and to attain to happiness by the way of virtue

Throughout the "Festival of the Supreme Being", Robespierre was beaming with joy; not even the negativity of his colleagues could disrupt his delight. He was able to speak of the things about which he was truly passionate, including Virtue and Nature, typical deist beliefs, and, of course, his disagreements with atheism.

As you can see (if you’re not too blinded by what appears to be your religiously fueled hatred and bias) is that religion was behind the scenes and politics was the real reason for the massacre. It had nothing to do with the ‘atheistic state’ you mentioned, which never existed except in your imagination. He set up a cult of personality (read religious cult) and he disliked atheists.

Your Wiki source on Stalin is being considered for removal because it relies on only one source and has been cited for being biased.

Either way, the Russian and Albanian atrocities had more to do with Totalitarian, Authoritarian regimes. The Church was a threat to Stalin and he moved to wipe them out in much the same way he wiped out anyone who stood in his way. His very first move was to take out political leaders who opposed him. From there he realized that the Catholic Church was a potentially powerful political opponent and he moved to wipe them out. He also started setting up a personality cult and when the church relented, he allowed them to continue on once he no longer viewed them as a threat.

Like deism, atheism doesn’t have a dogma or doctrine that teaches anything. Once you add in other elements like authoritarian communism, you have a potentially lethal brew. With deism you can find the same thing because there is no dogma or doctrine involved with believing in God. It’s only after you add in other elements of dogma that you can end up with a problem.

For example, you could find an atheist and a deist who dislike homosexuals. They may find them ‘icky’ for example. However, there is no atheist/deist dogma that tells them to believe that or reinforces that bigotry. They are simply bigots. However, a Christian can find scriptures in his or her Bible that tells them that homosexuals are abominations and that God dislikes them because they’re sinners. This reinforces and teaches that such bigotry is a good thing and that God agrees.

See the difference?

There is no guarantee that an atheist or a deist won’t be a bigot. But it’s not because they are a deist or an atheist that they are a bigot.

For the purpose of this article, your issue should be with authoritarian, communist governments and not atheists.

And for the record, most atheists don't want to force people not to believe either. Not everyone is a hateful prick like Stalin. Most people aren't, including atheists.

But I doubt your bigoted views of atheists will allow for that. It’s too bad because you’re views are seriously beginning to look extremely hateful. Hopefully, people who read this rhetorical and angry piece of writing will de-friend you and not pay any more attention to your ranting and raving.

  • 37 votes
#1.1 - Mon Feb 13, 2012 4:40 AM EST
Socrates1

Grisham...Excuses, excuses. All of my examples were officially atheistic states. It's interesting how you can demonize religion based on much flimsier evidence, and yet than deny the results of EVERY nation who has officially proclaimed itself to be atheistic.

I really don't have time, at the moment, to respond to your French disconnect, but even without it, the evidence is clear.

I also find your suggestion, and threat, that my presentation of the facts is "hateful", and that I might lose friends as a result simply another manifestation of the very type of attitude I assign to natheists.

Actual discourse, rather than fawning and agreement, seems to be a problem for some.

  • 4 votes
#1.2 - Mon Feb 13, 2012 5:36 AM EST
Grisham

Grisham...Excuses, excuses.

Socrates1...facts, facts.

All of my examples were officially atheistic states.

And authoritarian communist states. And I explained the link, debunked your premise using your own links and showed why atheism or deism are not responsible for your premise that atheists are all hateful, angry human beings.

It's interesting how you can demonize religion based on much flimsier evidence, and yet than deny the results of EVERY nation who has officially proclaimed itself to be atheistic.

It's interesting how you can demonize atheists when you understand nothing about them besides your bias and hatred.

I really don't have time, at the moment, to respond to your French disconnect, but even without it, the evidence is clear.

Of course you don't have time...

Have another atheist hate article to write?

I also find your suggestion, and threat, that my presentation of the facts is "hateful", and that I might lose friends as a result simply another manifestation of the very type of attitude I assign to natheists.

Just add it to your base of what seems to be by your writing, atheist hate. And it's not a threat. It's a hope.

Actual discourse, rather than fawning and agreement, seems to be a problem for some.

Oh please...

Your idea of discourse is to write a hateful piece of garbage article with usually no facts and just sweeping generalizations to draw traffic then agree with anyone who fawns on your every word and respond to anyone who disagrees in one of two ways:

a) Say their response somehow proves your point so that you don't have to respond in an intelligent and respectful manner.

or

b) Tell them that the article is enough proof for your claims and dismiss them.

Neither of which promote discourse. You use dodgy tactics in your writing and in your comments to promote hatred and make sweeping generalizations.

  • 25 votes
#1.3 - Mon Feb 13, 2012 6:48 AM EST
Woody316

What did you forget about the Salem witch trials and the Crusades? They were just good God loving Christians spreading the words of Christ./s

  • 18 votes
#1.4 - Mon Feb 13, 2012 7:34 AM EST
ryoushi12

Ah, socrates being socrates, and once again making his namesake spinning off into hyper driver in his grave.

Woody, you forget the inquisition, the religoius wars of the 16th and 17th centuries, the religious extermination of natives be british subjects in North America, the mass murder and forced conversion of the Saxons by Charlemagne, the pogroms against the Jews resulting in hundreds of theousands of deaths, the rape of Jerulsalem, the lynching of blacks and of Leo Frank in the 1930's, and on and onn and on.

The lesson - no ideology should be enforced on anybody else.

And socrates, if you REALLY think that some 10-15 million atheists and agnostics are "forcing" themselves on well over 260 MILLION ARMED and largely reactionary and militant christians, you need to talk to somebody, badly.

  • 17 votes
#1.5 - Mon Feb 13, 2012 8:17 AM EST
hard2port

"Atheists suggest that if only we would submit to their leadership the world would be a much better place. It is those dastardly Christians who have messed things up from time immemorial, and isn't it time we lay waste to their self-righteous system of tyranny?"

"As a Christian", "I'm an atheist"
Recognize any of these quotes from your past articles? Try not to get any paint on your feet.

  • 10 votes
#1.6 - Mon Feb 13, 2012 10:46 AM EST
whino33

Grisham did a great job in pointing out that these were all authoritarian communist states and that the actions being criticized were political, not religious.

Socrates had no response except, "they were also atheist" - so weak.

Clearly, Socrates is unable to distinguish between correlation and causation.

  • 12 votes
#1.7 - Mon Feb 13, 2012 11:20 AM EST
canary-in-the-coal-mine

atheist - religious - makes no difference to me. IF it comes to differences, I'll take up arms against the religious BECAUSE they are the ones who would attempt to shove "belief" down MY throat. Atheists don't TRY to make religious mumbo jumbo fit into their plans.

BTW - I'm great at cow towing to the religious bullsh it whenever necessary. I can "play act" with the best of them. EXPEDIENCY is the name of that tune.

As Falstaff would have said "Thus endeth my catechism".

  • 7 votes
#1.8 - Mon Feb 13, 2012 3:21 PM EST
BD Styers

Religion, politics and the use of force. Which came first, religion or politics?

    #1.9 - Mon Feb 13, 2012 6:34 PM EST
    Wm. Sanders

    My vote's with Grisham...and for good measure, I think Socrates would be deeply offended with you using his name. While I have nothing personal against religion or religious beliefs, I do have something personal about people peddling propaganda to further their personal agenda, be they religious or atheist zealots. Those kinds of people sing siren songs that lead thousands, if not millions to their deaths, often prematurely. None of these demagogues probably believed an ounce of their dogma...they were just in it for the power trip, and religion, or communism, or some other form of blind faith was just a means to their goal.

    There is never a true "atheist" state...Democracies like ours encourage free thought (and freedom of faith and conscience). Theocracies rise only to crumble, either of their own weight or ticking off the wrong people. Even totalitarian regimes had a cult of personality...North Korea could on paper be argued as a de jure atheist state, when in truth the Kim dynasty is essentially identical to the Pharoahs of ancient Egypt and worshipped.

    Just like any other religion.

    • 3 votes
    #1.10 - Tue Feb 14, 2012 1:06 AM EST
    randomreturn

    I've always contended that North Korea is essentially a religious cult with an army...

    • 1 vote
    #1.11 - Tue Feb 14, 2012 5:44 AM EST
    Socrates1

    Nothing has been debunked.....This kind of peudo-intellectual thinking is exactly why I write these articles.

    They are officially atheistic states.....period.....no debunking.....no evidence to the contrary....in fact, it is the point. Atheism and totalitarianism and authoritarianism go together...Intolerance and atheism have always gone hand in hand.

    This insane ability to suggest something has been proven untrue based solely on the fact that "I said so" and than further proved by the fact that others agree is the very propensity to ignore inconvenient facts that I most dislike.

    NOTHING has been debunked.

    EVERY officially atheistic nation has been intolerant and massacred its own people. EVERY officially atheistic nation has cared little about individual rights and liberties.

    The irony is that the so called debunking actually is simply evidence of another negative consequence of atheistic government.

    • 1 vote
    #1.12 - Tue Feb 14, 2012 3:31 PM EST
    Arad

    The irony is that the so called debunking actually is simply evidence of another negative consequence of atheistic government.

    If reason and logic are the consequence of an atheistic government, then I am sad the rest of the world isn't.

    • 2 votes
    #1.13 - Tue Feb 14, 2012 3:49 PM EST
    Abby.

    EVERY officially atheistic nation has been intolerant and massacred its own people. EVERY officially atheistic nation has cared little about individual rights and liberties.

    Could you provide links/evidence to this assertion regarding Australia?

    (good luck with that)
    (..)

    • 3 votes
    #1.14 - Tue Feb 14, 2012 8:35 PM EST
    Checkmate-983933

    Woody, you beat me to it. Even at this very moment, you have Middle Eastern terrorists brainwashing their people with mixed messages involving religion. If you martyr yourself, you will get 72 virgins in heaven is what they use as propaganda.

    Nowhere in the Koran does it mention this. This is just an example of someone using religion and twisting it to gain power.

    • 3 votes
    #1.15 - Tue Feb 14, 2012 9:13 PM EST
    Socrates1

    Arad....so be it. Why not just have a computer run the world based on statistics and what's best for the "majority"? Why worry about pesky little things like individual rights and liberties, they really don't make "sense".

    Wm Sanders...and of course we disagree, on a number of levels.

    1. Socrates asked the questions which eventually caused his death.

    2. What bias?

    3. I would suggest that you world view is threatened, which is what you mean by "my" bias.

    4. Yes there was a "true" atheistic state. I have provided examples of them.

    5. To whoever made the assertion...no Australia is not an Atheistic State.

    • 1 vote
    #1.16 - Tue Feb 14, 2012 10:54 PM EST
    Abby.

    (..)

    • 1 vote
    #1.17 - Wed Feb 15, 2012 6:24 AM EST
    Mr. Roger Rabbit

    Living in an officially atheistic country is not that different - still a lot of idiots around, and trying to make a descent living for yourself and your family, getting girls to bed you, and getting drunk oh holidays.

    • 5 votes
    #1.18 - Wed Feb 15, 2012 9:14 AM EST
    Reply
    randomreturn

    Atheists should take pride in how efficiently the leaders were able to butcher nobles and citizens alike

    Rather inflammatory, don't you think? (Well, of course you don't think so; you wrote it, after all).

    Contending that because people who were atheists did something means that all who are atheists should condone it is ludicrous. It is, in fact, even more ludicrous than contending that (for example) all Catholics condone pedophilia because the Church covered it up for years. I say "more ludicrous" rather than "as ludicrous" because atheists are by nature not tied to specific dogma and are by definition (in the West anyway) non-conformist to the average societal attitude about cosmology.

    • 19 votes
    Reply#2 - Mon Feb 13, 2012 4:18 AM EST
    Socrates1

    Sure, it gave a bit of an emphasis to the fact that, contrary to the view of some, bad things also happen in the absence of religion.

    • 1 vote
    #2.1 - Mon Feb 13, 2012 5:38 AM EST
    randomreturn

    bad things also happen in the absence of religion.

    Sure, I'll agree with you on that point. Millions were butchered by the ersatz paganism of the Nazi regime and by atheist communists throughout the years.

    I believe atheists and agnostics can be quite moral (I'm biased, as an agnostic); there are in fact plenty of moral/ethical codes that don't have a deistic foundation. But I'll accept your point that regimes based on atheism are not inherently peaceful.

    Regards

    • 2 votes
    #2.2 - Mon Feb 13, 2012 6:57 AM EST
    Arad

    bad things also happen in the absence of religion.

    There's a quote that I'm going to paraphrase: "Good men will always do good, and evil will always do evil. It takes religion to make good men do evil." I would counter that when a mythical God-figure is involved, ANY action could be framed as 'good' in order to sell it to good me. Wasn't Abraham(?) going to murder his own child because God told him to?

    But I'll accept your point that regimes based on atheism are not inherently peaceful.

    I'd expand upon that and point out that no regime EVER is inherently peaceful. As the government/ruling body will invariably be filled entirely or in part by people who want/like power, they will inevitably want MORE power. Neither religion nor the lack thereof will stop that.

    • 11 votes
    #2.3 - Mon Feb 13, 2012 9:46 AM EST
    randomreturn

    Arad:
    Excellent addendum.

    • 7 votes
    #2.4 - Mon Feb 13, 2012 10:18 AM EST
    Socrates1

    NO, it's not an excellent addendum.

    randomreturn, you were right the first time.

    Those who assert that all bad actions can be laid the feet of religion is just plain false...as proved by this article.

      #2.5 - Tue Feb 14, 2012 3:33 PM EST
      Arad

      NO, it's not an excellent addendum.

      Care to explain beyond "NO UR WRONG"?

      Those who assert that all bad actions can be laid the feet of religion is just plain false...as proved by this article.

      Don't you yourself accuse the same of athiests?

      The short answer is that there is no one cause for such evil. It's always a combination of greed, sociopathy and faux justification.

      • 5 votes
      #2.6 - Tue Feb 14, 2012 3:51 PM EST
      thelopes

      Those who assert that all bad actions can be laid the feet of religion is just plain false...

      Who has asserted "ALL" bad actions are at the feet of religion?

      • 6 votes
      #2.7 - Tue Feb 14, 2012 4:25 PM EST
      Socrates1

      Arad...I already have.

      thelopes...If you haven't seen it, I won't waste my time finding it for you.

        #2.8 - Tue Feb 14, 2012 10:56 PM EST
        thelopes

        thelopes...If you haven't seen it, I won't waste my time finding it for you.

        It it is so ubiquitous an occurrence, it shouldn't be hard for you to find it.

        • 2 votes
        #2.9 - Wed Feb 15, 2012 12:00 AM EST
        Reply
        Enoch-2699399

        Power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely. This is what believers of every stripe, and non-believers of every type share in common. We are all just mortals, not more after all is said and done.

        • 9 votes
        #3 - Mon Feb 13, 2012 9:28 AM EST
        BD Styers

        Please! Love is power. Force corrupts.

        • 2 votes
        #3.1 - Mon Feb 13, 2012 6:29 PM EST
        Socrates1

        Sure...which suggests that we need to examine the roots of the problems, not, as natheists do, suggest it all stems from a belief in God.

          #3.2 - Tue Feb 14, 2012 3:35 PM EST
          thelopes

          as natheists do, suggest it all stems from a belief in God.

          Can you cite this claim of "all" stemming from a belief in God?

          • 3 votes
          #3.3 - Tue Feb 14, 2012 4:25 PM EST
          Socrates1

          Yes.

            #3.4 - Tue Feb 14, 2012 10:56 PM EST
            thelopes

            Yes.

            Will you please?

            • 2 votes
            #3.5 - Wed Feb 15, 2012 12:00 AM EST
            Socrates1

            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Root_of_All_Evil%3F

              #3.6 - Wed Feb 15, 2012 3:26 AM EST
              thelopes

              So, should I assume your point of contention is the former title? As you don't seem to want to reference any specifics of the documentary itself...

              Hmm...

              in which he argues that humanity would be better off without religion or belief in God.

              The argument doesn't seem to be that humanity would be "without Evil" without religion.

              Dawkins has said that the title The Root of All Evil? was not his preferred choice, but that Channel 4 had insisted on it to create controversy. The sole concession from the producers on the title was the addition of the question mark. Dawkins has stated that the notion of anything being the root of all evil is ridiculous.

              • 4 votes
              #3.7 - Wed Feb 15, 2012 8:45 AM EST
              Socrates1

              It's simply the first one that googled up. Feel free to do some more research.

                #3.8 - Wed Feb 15, 2012 5:20 PM EST
                thelopes

                It's simply the first one that googled up. Feel free to do some more research.

                Why should I have more faith your claim is correct than you're willing to exemplify yourself?

                • 4 votes
                #3.9 - Wed Feb 15, 2012 5:59 PM EST
                Socrates1

                Because in so doing you are attempting to take the focus away from the subject of the article.

                Atheistic Countries are intolerant...comments?

                  #3.10 - Wed Feb 15, 2012 8:03 PM EST
                  thelopes

                  Because in so doing

                  ... by "in doing so" - you mean to pursue the course you just suggested - to do some more research? You're suggesting I take the focus away from the subject of the article?

                  you are attempting to take the focus away from the subject of the article.

                  I'm pursuing a statement you made. If it takes away from the subject of the article, aren't you the cause?

                  Atheistic Countries are intolerant...comments?

                  Humanity is intolerant. You'd need something more than a correlation to show causation.

                  • 4 votes
                  #3.11 - Wed Feb 15, 2012 8:35 PM EST
                  Socrates1

                  Ok...Humanity is intolerant. We agree.

                  • 1 vote
                  #3.12 - Thu Feb 16, 2012 10:23 AM EST
                  thelopes

                  Ok...Humanity is intolerant. We agree.

                  Right - and so the questions that would follow - Why is an atheist country intolerant? Why is a non-atheistic country intolerant?

                  • 4 votes
                  #3.13 - Thu Feb 16, 2012 12:32 PM EST
                  Arad

                  Why is an atheist country intolerant? Why is a non-atheistic country intolerant?

                  Greed and power-hunger. The difference is athiest countries don't do it in the name of God.

                  • 3 votes
                  #3.14 - Thu Feb 16, 2012 1:09 PM EST
                  Socrates1

                  An atheistic country is intolerant because humans are intolerant.

                  Religious countries which are tolerant are tolerant because of the religious influence.

                  • 1 vote
                  #3.15 - Thu Feb 16, 2012 1:29 PM EST
                  thelopes

                  Religious countries which are tolerant are tolerant because of the religious influence.

                  Are you suggesting all religious countries are tolerant - that none are or have ever been intolerant?

                  • 2 votes
                  #3.16 - Thu Feb 16, 2012 2:10 PM EST
                  Socrates1

                  No...and I didn't say so.

                  We do know that all officially atheistic countries have been intolerant.

                  We also agree that Man is intolerant.

                  We also have examples of some countries which are more tolerant than others.

                  Religion made the difference.

                  • 1 vote
                  #3.17 - Thu Feb 16, 2012 2:48 PM EST
                  thelopes

                  Religion made the difference.

                  Religious countries have also been intolerant. So, religion would make the difference and make the same?

                  • 2 votes
                  #3.18 - Thu Feb 16, 2012 2:58 PM EST
                  Socrates1

                  Yes, thelopes, but remember, just as all atheists are not alike, neither are religions.....:)

                  We already agree to our previous conclusions.

                  Religion is what's left.

                  • 1 vote
                  #3.19 - Thu Feb 16, 2012 3:41 PM EST
                  thelopes

                  Yes, thelopes, but remember, just as all atheists are not alike, neither are religions.....:)

                  Right - and so how does your blanket statement of "religion made the difference" work if religions are so varied? Why wouldn't it be the specific people in specific situations?

                  We already agree to our previous conclusions.

                  Can we go through them again?

                  Both religious and atheistic countries have been intolerant.

                  We've agreed atheism is valueless, so the intolerance is necessarily independent to the atheism, correct?

                  However - religions are systems of values, so intolerance under a religion would be tied to that religion, would it not?

                  So, intolerance in a country is due to the humans of those countries, but may have been informed by their religious value system.

                  Religion is what's left.

                  Left for what?

                  • 4 votes
                  #3.20 - Thu Feb 16, 2012 4:02 PM EST
                  Socrates1

                  It's that pesky little concept thing again.....and I'm going to assume you really don't understand.

                  Yes, thelopes, but remember, just as all atheists are not alike, neither are religions.....:)

                  Right - and so how does your blanket statement of "religion made the difference" work if religions are so varied? Why wouldn't it be the specific people in specific situations?

                  And in the variation, we find the answer. Specific religions in specific situations.

                  We already agree to our previous conclusions.

                  Can we go through them again?

                  I quote from you...

                  Humanity is intolerant. You'd need something more than a correlation to show causation.

                  However - religions are systems of values, so intolerance under a religion would be tied to that religion, would it not?

                  Depends, but not ALL religions. As you suggest, depending on the particular system of values.

                  So, intolerance in a country is due to the humans of those countries, but may have been informed by their religious value system.

                  As may the tolerance.....we already established that Man is intolerant.

                  Religion is what's left.

                  This ended up posting so if I miss something in the edit I apologize.

                  Bottom line...you seem only to give "credit" to religion for intolerance, agreeeing that it can have an influence, and yet turn right around and insist that it cannot be influencial in being tolerant....explanation?

                  • 1 vote
                  #3.21 - Thu Feb 16, 2012 8:04 PM EST
                  thelopes

                  It's that pesky little concept thing again.....and I'm going to assume you really don't understand.

                  And continue not to explain your thoughts?

                  And in the variation, we find the answer. Specific religions in specific situations.

                  So you agree "religion" itself hasn't made the difference? That there is more to the tolerance of a country than the religious status?

                  • 1 vote
                  #3.22 - Thu Feb 16, 2012 8:16 PM EST
                  Socrates1

                  What part are you not getting?

                  From my point of view you are willfully ignoring the point...so, I'll simply ask.....are you really not understanding? Are you "funning"me? Or does the concept really escape you?

                  1. I've explained my thoughts, down to the lowest common denominator, as far as I'm concerned.

                  2. No, your last sentence is shows complete lack of understanding.

                  • 1 vote
                  #3.23 - Thu Feb 16, 2012 9:38 PM EST
                  thelopes

                  It looks like you said some things that weren't in my first read.

                  Bottom line...you seem only to give "credit" to religion for intolerance,

                  You seem only to give "credit" to religion for tolerance, do you not?

                  and yet turn right around and insist that it cannot be influencial in being tolerant....explanation?

                  When did I insist it cannot be influential for being tolerant?

                  My disagreement is when you state that tolerance is only from the religious influence.

                  As may the tolerance.....we already established that Man is intolerant.

                  Humanity is also tolerant - and the tolerance may or may not be as influenced by the religious belief as the intolerance might.

                  1. I've explained my thoughts, down to the lowest common denominator, as far as I'm concerned.

                  Yet you never supported the claim: "Religious countries which are tolerant are tolerant because of the religious influence." - did you?

                  2. No, your last sentence is shows complete lack of understanding.

                  You first said, "Religion makes the difference," and then you said "specific religions in specific circumstances."

                  How can religion make the difference if it also depends on the circumstances?

                  • 3 votes
                  #3.24 - Thu Feb 16, 2012 11:13 PM EST
                  Marquis de Laffayette

                  What part are you not getting?

                  The part where you think any of your baseless claims are actually facts.

                  From my point of view you are willfully ignoring the point...so, I'll simply ask.....are you really not understanding?

                  From everyone else's point of view, you're so blinded by your dislike of atheism that you blame it for everything bad done by an atheist. When it's an atheist that does something bad, correlation somehow automatically proves causation.

                  Are you "funning"me? Or does the concept really escape you?

                  Perhaps if you were to use real arguments, rather than just saying that you're right and you've proven it in the article (which you haven't), people might see your position a little better.

                  1. I've explained my thoughts, down to the lowest common denominator, as far as I'm concerned.

                  The problem is that your thoughts are flawed, and you refuse to actually try to defend them. You just claim that you're right, and pretend like there's nothing else to be said.

                  • 5 votes
                  #3.25 - Fri Feb 17, 2012 2:02 AM EST
                  Socrates1

                  MdL...Unfortunately nothing in your comment makes any point other than attacking me....which seems to be the general attitude of those who believe as you do.

                  The irony in your post is overwhelming. Do you wish to continue to avoid the subject, or do you have a real point to make?

                  thelopes

                  t looks like you said some things that weren't in my first read.

                  Bottom line...you seem only to give "credit" to religion for intolerance,

                  You seem only to give "credit" to religion for tolerance, do you not?

                  No, hence the difference between us....one of my points.

                  and yet turn right around and insist that it cannot be influencial in being tolerant....explanation?

                  When did I insist it cannot be influential for being tolerant?

                  My disagreement is when you state that tolerance is only from the religious influence.

                  I provided my evidence, and used your logic.

                  As may the tolerance.....we already established that Man is intolerant.

                  Humanity is also tolerant - and the tolerance may or may not be as influenced by the religious belief as the intolerance might.

                  Where? Based on what?

                  1. I've explained my thoughts, down to the lowest common denominator, as far as I'm concerned.

                  Yet you never supported the claim: "Religious countries which are tolerant are tolerant because of the religious influence." - did you?

                  Yes, actually I have. No amount of evidence will change your opinion, which was the point in one of my other articles.

                  2. No, your last sentence is shows complete lack of understanding.

                  You first said, "Religion makes the difference," and then you said "specific religions in specific circumstances."

                  Exactly.

                  How can religion make the difference if it also depends on the circumstances?

                  Think it through, make my argument for me, and maybe you will understand.

                  • 1 vote
                  #3.26 - Fri Feb 17, 2012 2:33 PM EST
                  thelopes

                  No, hence the difference between us....one of my points.

                  Excuse me?

                  You said - and I quote - "Religious countries which are tolerant are tolerant because of the religious influence."

                  You are only giving credit for the tolerance to the religion in this statement.

                  I provided my evidence, and used your logic.

                  How does this answer the question - "when did I insist it cannot be influential for being tolerant?"

                  and used your logic.

                  My logic has been, from the start - "You'd need something more than a correlation to show causation."

                  Where? Based on what?

                  Think it through, make my argument for me, and maybe you will understand. ;)

                  Hint - value systems aren't restricted to religions.

                  Yes, actually I have.

                  You like to claim such a thing - but you can never cite yourself, can you?

                  No amount of evidence will change your opinion,

                  I would be flabbergasted if you could provide one time you've ever presented "evidence."

                  • 3 votes
                  #3.27 - Fri Feb 17, 2012 3:01 PM EST
                  Socrates1

                  Evidence....Every officially atheistic country has been intolerant.

                  Evidence...Your comment...

                  Ok...Humanity is intolerant. We agree.

                  Right - and so the questions that would follow - Why is an atheist country intolerant? Why is a non-atheistic country intolerant?

                  #3.13 - Thu Feb 16, 2012 12:32 PM EST

                  As there is only one difference between the two, it doesn't seem to be much of a stretch to suggest that "non-atheism" (belief in God) is the difference as it is self-evident that it is the difference.

                  You again....3.16

                  Religious countries which are tolerant are tolerant because of the religious influence.

                  Are you suggesting all religious countries are tolerant - that none are or have ever been intolerant?

                  I bolded the answer to your question.

                  I'll leave you to your ponderings and will be glad to answer any question which has not already been answered. Those which I have already answered are available to you by rereading the article or the particular comment.

                  Thank you.

                  • 2 votes
                  #3.28 - Fri Feb 17, 2012 10:59 PM EST
                  thelopes

                  Evidence....Every officially atheistic country has been intolerant.

                  Evidence of what?

                  As there is only one difference between the two, it doesn't seem to be much of a stretch to suggest that "non-atheism" (belief in God) is the difference as it is self-evident that it is the difference.

                  I'm not quite sure you actually read what you're citing.

                  You're correct that's the only difference... because both countries I'm asking about are intolerant.

                  • 3 votes
                  #3.29 - Fri Feb 17, 2012 11:12 PM EST
                  Socrates1

                  This discussion is going nowhere. I've made my points...You've attempted to make yours...I think.

                  • 2 votes
                  #3.30 - Fri Feb 17, 2012 11:31 PM EST
                  thelopes

                  This discussion is going nowhere. I've made my points...

                  Didn't you just say you'd answer questions you hadn't before answered? Evidence of what?

                  • 4 votes
                  #3.31 - Sat Feb 18, 2012 12:18 AM EST
                  Reply
                  Marquis de Laffayette

                  So, let's review. Atheists suggest that if only we would submit to their leadership the world would be a much better place.

                  Who said that, exactly? Making this country more secular is not the same as submitting to atheist leadership. Promoting equality amongst all religions, and asking for the government to give everyone the rights they deserve according to the constitution is not asking people to submit to atheist leadership.

                  Well. I'd have to say that the record of atheists just isn't that good and I didn't even go into "the rest of the story". I like my individual rights....how about you?

                  So you choose religion because, in your eyes, it is the lesser of two evils. Got it. That's your decision to make. But what exactly is the cause of this straw man argument? Is it the removal of prayer sanctioned by public schools? Or perhaps the legalization of gay marriage? If so, you're rights have not been harmed one bit. Feel free to add some context to your unbelievably broad and unspecific complaints.

                  • 13 votes
                  Reply#4 - Mon Feb 13, 2012 10:39 AM EST
                  Socrates1

                  The "cause" of this argument is the constant and repetitious nature of the attacks on religious folk based on strawman articles, incorrect facts, fallacious reasoning, followed by mutually self-righteous back patting on how smart and really really good these natheists are.

                    #4.1 - Tue Feb 14, 2012 3:38 PM EST
                    Arad

                    The "cause" of this argument is the constant and repetitious nature of the attacks on religious folk based on strawman articles, incorrect facts, fallacious reasoning, followed by mutually self-righteous back patting on how smart and really really good these natheists are.

                    All crimes, ironically, I could accuse of this article.

                    • 6 votes
                    #4.2 - Tue Feb 14, 2012 3:53 PM EST
                    Socrates1

                    lol...the oldest trick in the book.....just won't wash with me.

                    This article provides facts. Feel free to discuss them.

                      #4.3 - Tue Feb 14, 2012 10:57 PM EST
                      Reply
                      crazyrooster1946

                      I keep reading these type of articles here on NV, but none of them ever seem to state just who it is that is trying to take God from them? I have heard some here ask that the first amendment be read as it is written, to protect people from being forced to adhere to a religion that they do not want to belong to. Was that not the intent and premise of the amendment?

                      The Christian bible that I have actually seems to suggest that all this hate being spread about by what are supposed to be his flock, is not his will! Why is it that a few of the Christians in this nation, have allowed people who do not follow his teachings to speak for them? Did Christ teach us to hate each other? Perhaps it is time for for us to look within and purge the hate from our own hearts before we try to force it from others!

                      • 10 votes
                      Reply#5 - Mon Feb 13, 2012 10:52 AM EST
                      Socrates1

                      I have often given examples.

                      One being the suggestion that religious folk should leave their belief system "at the door".

                      • 1 vote
                      #5.1 - Tue Feb 14, 2012 3:39 PM EST
                      crazyrooster1946

                      Socrates: Thank you for your civil response! Have a wonderful day!

                        #5.2 - Tue Feb 14, 2012 4:26 PM EST
                        Reply
                        Ian-2690048

                        This whole seed is one giant strawman given that fact I've never heard and atheist call for the banishing of religion by law. In fact, the complete opposite is true. Most are simply stating that we should adhere to the constitution and our secular state. The only things you mentioned that have anything in common was that they were authoritarian regimes (and you're simply wrong about the Reign of Terror as it was religiously motivate). Authoritarian regimes are the complete opposite of anything I've ever heard an atheist espouse around here.

                        You also leave out the fact that of modern western countries the most secular and least religious lead the world in contentment and happiness. The US, the most religious of them studied by a long shot, comes in dead last.

                        http://www.miller-mccune.com/culture-society/who-needs-god-when-we-ve-got-mammon-5634/

                        • 10 votes
                        Reply#6 - Mon Feb 13, 2012 11:05 AM EST
                        Marquis de Laffayette

                        This whole seed is one giant strawman given that fact I've never heard and atheist call for the banishing of religion by law.

                        I noticed the same thing. He constructs and defines what an atheist is and then criticizes that definition, without consider whether or not it has any bearing on the real world.

                        In fact, the complete opposite is true. Most are simply stating that we should adhere to the constitution and our secular state.

                        Apparently asking to have equal freedom, because it would take some of the extra privileges currently awarded to Christianity away, is akin to asking for atheistic rule. It's essentially the same as the whole "if you're not for me you're against me" quip. It ignores that you can be neutral; and for this case, neutrality would be to provide equal rights for all religions (or lack thereof).

                        • 10 votes
                        #6.1 - Mon Feb 13, 2012 12:17 PM EST
                        Socrates1

                        I disagree.

                        I've never heard and atheist call for the banishing of religion by law.

                        I provided examples.

                        I don't find my scenario any more outlandish than the one suggesting that the sky is falling and we need to worry about a theocracy......Christians specifically wrote a Constitution rejecting a theocratic state....thus my evidence to the contrary view.....On the other hand, atheists have never had a state that truly protected individual liberties.

                          #6.2 - Tue Feb 14, 2012 3:42 PM EST
                          Marquis de Laffayette

                          I don't find my scenario any more outlandish than the one suggesting that the sky is falling and we need to worry about a theocracy...

                          Except that there actually are theists who wish to outlaw homosexuality and other behaviors on the basis that they are sins. There are no atheist groups who wish to outlaw Christianity or any other religion.

                          Christians specifically wrote a Constitution rejecting a theocratic state

                          They wrote it after they finished the old testament, but before they started the new testament, right? This is one argument that cannot be won, because you refuse to accept facts. The Constitution was not written specifically by Christians.

                          On the other hand, atheists have never had a state that truly protected individual liberties.

                          Can you name a religious state that has?

                          • 5 votes
                          #6.3 - Tue Feb 14, 2012 5:14 PM EST
                          Socrates1

                          I don't find my scenario any more outlandish than the one suggesting that the sky is falling and we need to worry about a theocracy...

                          Except that there actually are theists who wish to outlaw homosexuality and other behaviors on the basis that they are sins. There are no atheist groups who wish to outlaw Christianity or any other religion.

                          And yet the facts in the article beg to differ.

                          Christians specifically wrote a Constitution rejecting a theocratic state

                          They wrote it after they finished the old testament, but before they started the new testament, right? This is one argument that cannot be won, because you refuse to accept facts. The Constitution was not written specifically by Christians.

                          Seriously? Yes, it was written from a Christian point of view using Christian theology. Please don't indicate ignorance by suggesting otherwise.

                          On the other hand, atheists have never had a state that truly protected individual liberties.

                          Can you name a religious state that has?

                          That's not the comparison.

                            #6.4 - Tue Feb 14, 2012 11:01 PM EST
                            Reply
                            Ed Wood

                            Atheist, Deist, or Theist, Puritan or Communist, centralization of power combined with bigotry, ignorance, and intolerance always ends badly.

                            • 4 votes
                            #7 - Mon Feb 13, 2012 2:19 PM EST
                            CL1

                            Do we have "centralization of power" in the US?

                            I ask, because I read a statement elsewhere of, "The Constitution centralizes political power in the federal government."

                            I see now that I previously thought centralization to be more national, and less federal.

                            Also, is your comment's main point, that it doesn't matter what the doctrine is -- any strongly held doctrine or belief within the system--political or religious--is going to end badly?

                            If so, good thing we work to maintain a system of 'checks and balances.' If either political party gets too much presence over the other, without religion to 'check' it---it would seem things would end badly. Perhaps that's what is wrong with our nation today?

                            • 4 votes
                            #7.1 - Mon Feb 13, 2012 2:59 PM EST
                            canary-in-the-coal-mine

                            NATIONAL IS FEDERAL (the two are identical unless you are aware of some shadow government)

                            • 1 vote
                            #7.2 - Mon Feb 13, 2012 3:25 PM EST
                            CL1

                            Well, it's most likely a financial issue, but I thought they were considered different? There is a difference between national debt and federal deficit, so that might be the only 'reference' with the two terms.

                            In that case, federal spending would seem to override the national debt, offering centralized power, yes? Or, from a 'power' perspective, I'm not sure if the implication is perhaps a more Congressional power, or not, but that would seem to imply the 'states'..which seems to me to be that of 'national' power.

                            To the point Ed was making, I was just trying to clarify "centralized power" in the context of our (US) government...if it's centralized by the Federal entity or if it's centralized with the states. It's confusing in that the whole (Federal--an entity of its own) is comprised of its parts, yet, the parts have a national interest as well. Oh well, I'm confused and don't want to derail, so I'll drop it. :)

                            • 1 vote
                            #7.3 - Mon Feb 13, 2012 4:06 PM EST
                            Ed Wood

                            Do we have "centralization of power" in the US?

                            No, but we seem to be working on it.

                            I was referring to the atheist authoritarians in communist nations on one hand, and authoritarian theists in theocracies like Iran (and Christian theocracies through out history) on the other hand.

                            If so, good thing we work to maintain a system of 'checks and balances.'

                            I agree.

                            • 1 vote
                            #7.4 - Mon Feb 13, 2012 4:23 PM EST
                            CL1

                            When you 'threw' in :) the word "Communist," it send my mind 'political' instead of religious, sorry. Also, it appears when many folks bring up "centralized power," they are usually referencing politics, moreso than religion, I thought, with the exception of theocracies, of course.

                            I understood your original comment from the perspective of "atheist authoritarian" in communist countries, as the same that Socrates was pointing to. That's true, it's just as 'dictatorial' in a theocracy. The politics are interpreted through religious belief.

                            Thank you for replying.

                            • 2 votes
                            #7.5 - Mon Feb 13, 2012 4:35 PM EST
                            BD Styers

                            Federal versus National:

                            "National" implied a Government which should "directly operate on individuals and possess compulsive power on the people of the United States"---"Federal" implying a Government of compact, resting for enforcement of its acts "on the good faith of the parties." (Notice there was so much misunderstanding that the terms had to be defined, so they understood what kind of government they were to form), "The Making of the Constitution" by Charles Warren (around page 147).

                            • 2 votes
                            #7.6 - Mon Feb 13, 2012 6:31 PM EST
                            CL1

                            BD, yes. Of the "individuals and possess compulsive power on the people," ..National Government, as I see it, too.

                            Putting this somewhat into the context of the article, that would be the opposite of an authoritarian regime...whereas, I see a Federal Government wanting to appeal less to the individual and more to the 'whole'...making it easier to enact that authoritarian regime. A 'state' could act similarly, but they could be struck down in the process.

                            • 3 votes
                            #7.7 - Mon Feb 13, 2012 7:21 PM EST
                            BD Styers

                            It's very subtle, the difference. I can't say I really get it, but I'm 'digesting'.

                            • 2 votes
                            #7.8 - Mon Feb 13, 2012 8:33 PM EST
                            CL1

                            "digesting"...me too! Thanks for the quote, BD.

                            • 3 votes
                            #7.9 - Mon Feb 13, 2012 8:45 PM EST
                            BD Styers

                            likewise, I didn't consider the difference until now -- win/win

                            • 2 votes
                            #7.10 - Mon Feb 13, 2012 9:42 PM EST
                            Socrates1

                            The difference between a national and federal government.

                            In the case of the United States...no States.

                            Example....the Electoral College.

                            The REASON that a President can lose the popular vote and win the election is because it is FEDERAL, not NATIONAL.

                            • 2 votes
                            #7.11 - Tue Feb 14, 2012 3:44 PM EST
                            CL1

                            Thank you for a concise explanation.

                            I interpret that to mean that the "Government" is not "Of the people, for the people or by the people," as intended; it's an illusion at best, and a travesty at worst.

                            It suggests we are ruled by an oligarchy rather than by the "Rule of Law."

                            • 1 vote
                            #7.12 - Tue Feb 14, 2012 4:51 PM EST
                            Socrates1

                            No, apparently my explanation failed.

                            The building blocks of the United States are the STATES and thus it is the will of the States which is important in a Federal System. Each STATE is "of the people, by the people, for the people".

                            I'm afraid you're mixing apples and oranges.

                            • 1 vote
                            #7.13 - Tue Feb 14, 2012 11:03 PM EST
                            CL1

                            The building blocks of the United States are the STATES and thus it is the will of the States which is important in a Federal System

                            That makes sense to me. But, I see that as a statement of fact...not an explanation.

                            Each STATE is "of the people, by the people, for the people".

                            Again, I see that as a statement of fact, but not an explanation.

                            My original question was wanting to make sure I understood what the difference was between a national and a federal government.

                            I originally viewed a national government to be the legislative branch, and the Federal government to be the combination of the three branches.

                            That was just how I was defining it in 'my' mind, without knowing how others thought. Then, after Ed above made his comment, I got to thinking that perhaps how the Government looked at the differentiation was from a financial perspective, perhaps, with Federal spending (Securities, Treasuries, Notes) vs. the National Debt.

                            So, now, it sounds like you are bringing in a 'third' approach, to which I don't know if I am following it or not. :)

                            • 2 votes
                            #7.14 - Tue Feb 14, 2012 11:50 PM EST
                            Socrates1

                            No.

                            National means the direct relationship between the national government and all citizens.

                            Federal means an indirect relationship with the States in between.

                            • 1 vote
                            #7.15 - Wed Feb 15, 2012 3:28 AM EST
                            CL1

                            In my mind, I'm not separating citizens, states and Federal Government. Maybe that's where I'm hung up? I think of individuals as a group - not as individuals, and those groups live in states.

                            What I'm getting from your 7.15 is - (1) the "people" have a direct relationship with a large entity called a national government; (2) the "people" have an indirect relationship with a large entity called a Federal Government. Your focus is on "the people's relationship" --not a state's relationship. ..That must be why I wasn't understanding before. Yes?

                            Yet, isn't the residence of this 'national government' in the Legislative Branch?

                              #7.16 - Wed Feb 15, 2012 4:28 AM EST
                              BD Styers

                              It's awkward for me having one of those light bulb in the mind coming on moments. I just remembered something buried way back in the deepest chasm of memory from about the third grade probably. The state is our national government, and the Union of States, or what we refer to as our country, the United States of America, is the Federation of American States. Today is going to be one of those days. I'll have to sort this out.

                              I was just discussing this with my wife, a public school teacher, and she pointed out that this stuff isn't getting focus because they are struggling with getting kids to read, let alone the idea of understanding of government.

                                #7.17 - Wed Feb 15, 2012 6:11 AM EST
                                CL1

                                The state is our national government

                                This is where I was hung up, I think. Capital 'S' vs. 's' ?

                                I think of "state" in terms of independent states, and each state government is a little different. I do, however, understand and agree with the "union of states," i.e., the United States of America, as the Federation of States... where the all of the independent states come together to form one--and I thought that is what we call the Federal Government.

                                I wonder if Socrates is primarily wanting to be "conceptual" with the term "national government?" i.e. the 1st Amendment... the difference between the "State" (as one body of people) vs. the Federal Government that can only mandate in areas that are not specified as dictates of "the people?"

                                  #7.18 - Wed Feb 15, 2012 2:23 PM EST
                                  Socrates1

                                  OK

                                  We each have families....and we have decided to go out to dinner together.

                                  Federal system...each family takes a vote on where they want to go. The three Heads of the families meet, vote, and decide to go to eat Pizza.

                                  National System....The families get together with each member getting one vote. The majority votes to go eat Indian.

                                  Any clearer?

                                    #7.19 - Wed Feb 15, 2012 5:26 PM EST
                                    CL1

                                    Thank you, Socrates! Yes, those analogies make the same point as your 7.15, and they are both explanatory of our relationships to each term. Thank you. I understood both.

                                    I think what was holding me up was an effort to find 'national government' representation within the Federal system, instead of just looking at the purpose of each one, as you were intending.

                                    Thank you for spending the time to go over this!

                                      #7.20 - Wed Feb 15, 2012 5:57 PM EST
                                      Reply
                                      Andrew331978

                                      Jesus F. Christ. Socrates is spinning in his grave with the idiocies of his namesake. This guy eschews every single massacre his filthy religion has visited upon the world just to make the point that reason and logic are evil which defies the very essence of who Socrates was.

                                      • 8 votes
                                      Reply#8 - Wed Feb 15, 2012 7:38 AM EST
                                      Socrates1

                                      Nope, and other than responses originating in your fantasies I'd like to see you prove what you state.

                                        #8.1 - Wed Feb 15, 2012 5:28 PM EST
                                        Reply
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