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SOCRATES1

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Something Pro-Life and Pro-Choice Supporters Seem To Agree On---Cross Posted.

Tue Jan 31, 2012 5:57 AM EST
politics, election, supreme-court, christian, abortion, conservative, constitution, liberal, womens-rights, left, planned-parenthood, religious-right, pro-life, pro-choice, d-c, roe-v-wade, fetus, conception, fourteenth-amendment, right-to-privacy, partial-birth, rulings
By Socrates1
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On the way to writing a more in depth article on the Abortion controversy, I ended up getting side-tracked with this one.  It seems to me that both sides accept the premise that the life of a baby is "sacred" and worthy of legal protection and thus it is the question of when the entity becomes a baby that is at the heart of the debate.  This may not seem to be such a novel idea, but perhaps it is worthy of further examination.  For one thing, all killing is not murder, and thus this area of agreement is actually significant in that it suggests both sides are operating from the same premise, ie. at the point the fetus becomes a "person" it is protected.

 

Before we go any further, I'd like to take a look at the above mentioned premise, just to show that it is not simply a "given" and that there is actually an alternative "foundational premise" which might meet the test of being "moral" and yet not protect the fetus.  In essence, that alternative involves "choice".  

 

In an attempt to illustrate what I mean by choice, I offer the following example.  A man is trapped on a sinking ship and as the waters begin to rise he is faced with a horrible dilemma.  It represents such a parental nightmare that I even hesitate to use it for fear I may be punished in some unforeseen way by what some call karma.  

 

In any event, the dilemma is that he can only stay afloat if he saves himself and one, not both, of his children.  He cannot sacrifice himself, or all will die.  He cannot attempt to save both children or all will die.  The one child is sacrificed so the other may live, and, though he is willing to sacrifice himself, as the necessary agent through which at least one of the children will survive, he must be one of the ones to live.  I would assume that few among us would be anything other than sympathetic to a parent who was forced to make such a choice, and thus he would probably be considered one of the victims, certainly not a murderer.

 

The above example illustrates that alternative arguments do exist which could be used by pro-choice advocates to support a pro-choice position, even while acknowledging the "person hood" of the fetus at the time of the abortion.  Without arguing over the specifics of my example, the point is that the pro-choice movement has not attempted to make that argument other than in those cases when the mother's life might be at risk should the pregnancy go full term.  

 

In essence, the question is not whether the baby deserves legal protection, but rather at what point the fetus magically turns into a "baby".  This may not seem to be a particularly new or valuable insight, but I would suggest that it is by focusing on the answer to just this question that a more acceptable outcome from the perspective of those in the Pro-life camp might be given legal sanction.  

 

The point is that both sides have already agreed that a baby is justifiably given not only the same rights as any other American Citizen, but, in fact, extra rights, in that the parent is required to make every effort to provide the necessary and proper conditions to ensure the baby's survival, and that to do otherwise can, and should, result in charges of negligence, or even murder, depending on the circumstances.  It obviously follows that even those who are pro-choice, if they are to have any consistency at all, must be forcefully involved in advocating the funding and staffing of a valid research project which answers the question  on a scientific, not religious, basis.  For them to do otherwise would be to expose them to charges that their actions are in opposition to their stated position that the rights which are afforded to a baby are no less than any other citizen.

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  • Public Discussion (150)
Socrates1

A response to some of the comments I have recently encountered, not necessarily in this venue.

  • 3 votes
#1 - Tue Jan 31, 2012 6:02 AM EST
Shuklack

Valid question... the answer from the far-right lately is "at conception" it seems.

Another scenario I think provokes some thought into how we make the determination ourselves, is this:

A man is on a sinking ship, to his right there is a small refrigerator with 50,000 viable embryos inside; to his left there is a crying newborn. He can only bring one to safety. Which should he choose?

This can be asked numerous ways with added choices, from a pregnant woman to even a cute animal. What's interesting is that a lot of people will choose the 50,000 viable embyros last - which is puzzling when the far-right folks want to equate them to babies (which is often the first choice).

  • 8 votes
#1.1 - Tue Jan 31, 2012 12:09 PM EST
ryoushi12

There is no real agreement between pro-choice/pro-contraception/pro-sex education people, and anti-abortion/anti-contraception/anti-sex education people.

It's like saying there's some agreement between those of us who KNOW the world is round, and flatearthers, because we both call this place we live on "earth".

And an excellent point on the raging hypocrisy of of anti-abortionists - the catholic church actually TAKES that position of saving the one at the expense of the 50,000 in that the church has NO problem with hundreds of embryos dying just to get ONE live birth.

  • 5 votes
#1.2 - Tue Jan 31, 2012 12:39 PM EST
Socrates1

I'm afraid I'd have to disagree. Are you suggesting that pro-choice people do not support a baby's right to life?

  • 1 vote
#1.3 - Tue Jan 31, 2012 9:33 PM EST
Freewill

Socrates, I champion a position on this issue that tends to piss off both sides of this debate. I am very strongly pro-life for reasons I will explain in a moment, but I am pro-choice in that I don't feel that force of law is necessary or even effective in stopping abortion. I feel that efforts should be made to change behavior as it pertains to abortion through proper education and careful examination of the moral ramifications, as opposed to force of law.

As to the matter of why I am pro-life, I believe that life most certainly does begin at conception. At that point a unique life is sparked that is completely distinct from that of either parent and if nature is left to take its course those cells would serve no other purpose than to grow into a fetus and become a separate human being. At the point of conception the new life is certainly within the body of it's mother, but it is most certainly NOT part of HER body, to the extent that she can claim a moral right to terminate that new life, for which she is at least partially responsible for creating in most cases.

Pinning the beginning of a new life to an arbitrarily selected point of "viability" makes no logical sense. A human baby is no more "viable" after being delivered from the womb than it is as a fetus at any point during pregnancy. She cannot survive without assistance in either case. The only difference is the nature of that assistance. If we are to agree, therefore, that a new born baby or an infant is a life to be valued, protected, and nurtured why not the unborn fetus? This same or similar argument can be made against the term "personhood" that we hear bandied about in these discussions.

As to my term "proper education" I believe first of all that the real "choice" in this whole discussion is the mutual choice of the mother and the father to engage in actions that can potentially result in the creation of a new life. As such, the reality of the situation is that one must (or should) take responsibility for the choices that one makes, and one must come to understand that clearly the BEST choice to avoid unwanted pregnancy is to wait until one is completely ready for that responsibility. People can make all the excuses they want, but THAT is the truth. Abstinence MUST be taught, perhaps along with other forms of prevention, as the only true 100% effective form of birth control. It is just silly not to acknowledge that.

Secondly, rather than treating abortion as simply a routine medical procedure (fraught with its own potential dangers and complications by the way), ALL aspects of what it truly is should be thoroughly discussed with the mother, including the alternatives such as adoption. I believe that it should be made clear to the mother that abortion is cutting short a new life by unnatural means, and that the moral implications of that should be weighed against the discomfort and inconvenience of pregnancy, particularly since in most cases that life was created by her own actions for which she needs to bear at least partial responsibility. Since she can easily relinquish that responsibility after the birth via adoption, efforts should be made to implore her to do the right thing and choose life.

In the end, I realize that the horror of abortion can only be reduced or eliminated by changing people's minds about how it is viewed; by convincing women who might consider it that the rigors of pregnancy, or her "right to her body" are not morally superior or more important than the life of an innocent child and its right to its own body. I don't feel that laws against it will necessarily be effective until enough minds are changed, and at that point such laws will not be necessary.

  • 4 votes
#1.4 - Wed Feb 1, 2012 4:51 AM EST
nica1829

changing people's minds about how it is viewed;

Freewill, YOU mean how YOU view it. And I hate to tell you since you do not know every woman's circumstances that telling them how YOU view abortion will most likely NOT change the mind of a woman that is set on terminating a pregnancy. YOU want to control people's minds or I should say women's minds. I see a woman as more important and you see a blob as cells as more important. In my opinion I am more moral than you since I want to preserve the life & mind of a HUMAN BEING breathing, living & productive to society. You on the other hand want to protect a group of cells that cannot survive outside the body of another. Let me ask you this (as has been touched on by various others): IF my daughter needed one of your kidneys to survive is it OK for the government to FORCE you to hand it over even against your will? If not then please trying to FORCE woman to provide body parts to potential human beings.

  • 2 votes
#1.5 - Wed Feb 1, 2012 6:54 AM EST
Freewill

nica,

Freewill, YOU mean how YOU view it.

Fair enough. That is precisely what I mean. I would like to peacefully and without force bring people around to viewing it the way I view it. It is called expressing my opinion and hoping to have an impact on the opinion of others. Is that okay with you or is YOUR opinion the only one that matters?

And I hate to tell you since you do not know every woman's circumstances that telling them how YOU view abortion will most likely NOT change the mind of a woman that is set on terminating a pregnancy.

You are absolutely right, I don't know EVERY woman's circumstances, but I see no evil in trying to reason with her BEFORE she makes up her mind to end a life that is not hers, or at least ask her to weigh her "circumstances" against the value of another human life. I mean absolutely no disrespect, and I am not blind to the various circumstances and very difficult choices that a pregnant woman must face. I have no illusions about being able to change EVERY mind, I will settle for just one.

YOU want to control people's minds or I should say women's minds.

Given what I said above, I hope you don't still feel that way. I have no desire to "control" anyone's mind and I think I've made that clear. A heartfelt attempt to change someones mind, or helping them to see a bad situation in a different light, is a far cry from an attempt to control it my friend.

I see a woman as more important and you see a blob as cells as more important.

I see any and all human life as important, period.

In my opinion I am more moral than you since I want to preserve the life & mind of a HUMAN BEING breathing, living & productive to society.

And I respect that opinion without ANY sort of malice. But may I ask you respectfully, how is a woman's life or mind "preserved" by taking the life and mind of another before it has a chance to live, breath or be productive? Or to put another way, in what way is the woman's life and mind NOT preserved by allowing the new life within her, her child, to be born and have a chance to become productive to society? And at risk of upsetting you further, may I ask you to then carefully weigh your answers to these questions against the value of a human life (the proposition of life or death).

You on the other hand want to protect a group of cells that cannot survive outside the body of another.

That is correct. A group of cells that have no other natural purpose than to be the beginning of a new and distinct human being. A newborn baby or an infant is also a group of cells that cannot survive outside the body of another without care and nurturing. I would like to protect them as well.

Let me ask you this (as has been touched on by various others): IF my daughter needed one of your kidneys to survive is it OK for the government to FORCE you to hand it over even against your will? If not then please trying to FORCE woman to provide body parts to potential human beings.

No it is not. But you have misread my position, and I'm afraid that you have drawn a false analogy. I said repeatedly that I am NOT among those who feel the Government should exert force in this matter. I advocate for the life of the unborn and hope to help others to see it my way, but through compassion, not force. In your analogy the kidney in question is mine, part of my body, my DNA, critical to the proper function of my body. In the case of an embryo or fetus, it is a distinctly separate life with separate DNA and cell structures and is not critical to the life of the mother's body as its host under most circumstances. She is not providing her own body parts by force to sustain the child growing within. She is simply nurturing it via the mechanism that nature has designed. The life that she is nurturing is not her own, just as the life of an infant that is cared for by its parents (or surrogate parents) is not their own. I therefore have difficulty seeing your analogy as valid.

I realize that my opinions are upsetting to some and completely misunderstood by others. I have spent many years studying reproductive science and various philosophies, beliefs, and forms of morality and really thinking this through, and have not arrived at my opinions without difficulty and doubt. That is not to say that I am rigid in my opinion either. I am more than willing to listen to other opinions and consider and discuss them my friend, and all I am asking is the same consideration in return.

  • 1 vote
#1.6 - Wed Feb 1, 2012 2:59 PM EST
nica1829

When it comes to my body, of course MY opinion is the only one that matters. Just like when it comes to your body, your opinion is the only one that matters. How you view abortion or pregnancy or whatever is fine when applied to YOUR life & body, but when you try to "brainwash" (oh I am sorry - change someone's "VIEW" by insisting YOUR morals be applied) others then you cross the line. Keep your morals & your view. I will keep mine. I will never try to force my morals or opinion into your life, so please allow me the same courtesy, friend.

  • 1 vote
#1.7 - Wed Feb 1, 2012 3:34 PM EST
Freewill

Will do my friend, but you won't mind if I express (not force) my opinion for others to consider, or to ignore?

  • 2 votes
#1.8 - Wed Feb 1, 2012 6:33 PM EST
Socrates1

While I appreciate both of your comments, I'd like to bring the discussion back to the particular issue I raised, which is that both "sides" claim to believe that life is sacred, and that neither side is prepared to categorically state that at the life of a baby is not worthy of protection.

I make this point, once again, to emphasize that from the point of view of the pro-choice people themselves this makes the "it's my body" argument irrelevant once we begin to recognize the baby as a separate entity. If this be so, and pro-choice people are to be consistent, it seems that determining the point when a baby becomes* a separate entity would be of the utmost importance to them.

To further clarify my understanding of the pro-choice position..

1. PC believes in the sanctity of life.

2. PC believes that at the point a fetus is recognized as a separate entity it is entitled to certain protections.

3. PC does not believe in killing babies.

4. PC makes a distinction between a fetus (potential baby), at which time "it's my body and I can do what I want", and a baby, at which time the "it's my body" argument no longer applies.

5. Shouldn't they than desperately wish to determine scientifically where that line should be drawn? In other words, shouldn't they want to know..so they can base their actions on their own criteria?

Freewill, on the other hand, are you not doing the same thing based on your "belief"? If you do believe that life begins at conception, are you suggesting that you are willing to leave it up to one human being to determine under what circumstances that person should be allowed to murder another? With all due respect, that would seem to be a bit inconsistent as well.

  • 1 vote
#1.9 - Thu Feb 2, 2012 12:32 AM EST
Freewill

With all due respect, that would seem to be a bit inconsistent as well.

You are probably right Socrates, I imagine that my position does appear to be inconsistent.

I suppose that I have taken up a position of practicality on this issue. Until the mindset that resulted in Roe v. Wade is reversed (and it can be someday as is evidenced by Norma McCorvey herself), and many more people come to see the true horror of abortion, I feel that force is not going to end it. In fact, it might even exacerbate it and make it more dangerous for the woman as well. I feel that if I can use reason and compassion to convince one doctor, or one woman, at a time, lives can be saved. I feel that education on avoidance of unwanted pregnancy in the first place, including abstinence and the moral obligation to take responsibility for ones actions, is also important. I hope that there will come a point where most, if not all, people will come to realize that we don't need a separate law for abortion, we already have laws for taking another life.

I realize that this puts me at odds with both entrenched camps on this issue, and I appreciate you providing a venue here to discuss it.

By the way, I am going to be taking some time away from Newsvine due to a very heavy work load, so I will see you in a few weeks my friend.

  • 1 vote
#1.10 - Thu Feb 2, 2012 11:44 AM EST
gmross

Freewill,

It is called expressing my opinion and hoping to have an impact on the opinion of others. Is that okay with you or is YOUR opinion the only one that matters?

I understand that you don't try to force your opinion on others, but, there are people who would try to do this in the form of laws and in repealing laws, it is these people that most of us who believe in a womans right to chose oppose. In recent elections it has become evident that these people are seeking office and some have won those offices, anyone who would take away a persons right to chose what to do with their own body doesn't need to be in office, especially one were laws can be changed or made that would take that choice away. These are the people that I oppose and I am sure everyone who is pro-choice on the vine would agree with me.

  • 1 vote
#1.11 - Thu Feb 2, 2012 12:29 PM EST
Socrates1

gmross....unfortunately you are still using the "it's my body" argument, when it is irrelevant. As a pro-choice person aren't you interested in when life begins....scientifically? Or, on the other hand, are you simply suggesting that killing another human being is acceptable?

    #1.12 - Thu Feb 2, 2012 10:52 PM EST
    gmross

    Socrates, I would no more accept the "killing of another human being" than you would, but, that being said, a set of cells that don't even begin to look like a human being aren't a human being, this is what I am talking about. The current law does not state that abortion is killing a human being, nor does it state that its ok to kill a baby that has been born already, it gives specifics as to when an abortion is legal to perform and that is BEFORE the fetus has developed into a baby, so, it is NOT KILLING A HUMAN BEING. 'nuff said.

    Just one more thing. Your whole premise would take away a womans right to chose what to do with her body, this is infringeing on her right to chose what to do with HER body, it is not incumbant upon you or anyone to tell anyone what they can do with their body.

    • 1 vote
    #1.13 - Fri Feb 3, 2012 9:10 AM EST
    Socrates1

    And you are accepting and rejecting my premise at the same time

    You suggest that you are against killing a human being, and yet you also suggest that you are willing to allow the law, not science, to choose when that moment begins.

    If you truly are against killing a human being, regardless of the law, shouldn't you wish to determine for absolute certainty when that moment begins?

    In other words, once again, the "it's my body" argument is irrelevant.

    • 1 vote
    #1.14 - Fri Feb 3, 2012 11:34 AM EST
    gmross

    No Socrates, I am not accepting your premise at all. You asked me if I would be willing to kill a baby, I said I would not, I stated, "The current law does not state that abortion is killing a human being, nor does it state that its ok to kill a baby that has been born already, it gives specifics as to when an abortion is legal to perform and that is BEFORE the fetus has developed into a baby". A baby is a living breathing human being that can live outside the womb, a fetus cannot live outside the womb, a group of cells cannot live outside the womb. These two things are not human beings, and they are not babies.

    • 1 vote
    #1.15 - Sat Feb 4, 2012 12:17 AM EST
    Socrates1

    I'm sorry but you continue to beg the question.

    You are defining what a baby is, based solely on your agenda. What if you are wrong? If you truly are against killing a baby, shouldn't you want confirmation of your opinion based on science, not law?

    • 1 vote
    #1.16 - Sat Feb 4, 2012 1:40 PM EST
    jfxgillis

    Soc:

    Sigh. How would you go about constructing a testable experiment to scientifically determine the answer you say science could determine?

    You don't have to be a neurologist to answer something like "synapse connections capable of registering pain or pleasure" or "capable of survival out of the uterus."

    "Is it a fetus or a baby?" is not a scientific question. "Can this organism metabolize independently?" is.

    The point I'm trying to make below and that you're either ignoring or I'm not expressing clearly enough, is that no matter what testable proposition science might offer, it won't be the pro-Choicers but the pro-Lifers who reject that proposition out of hand. So you're addressing this article to the wrong contestants.

    • 2 votes
    #1.17 - Sat Feb 4, 2012 2:01 PM EST
    Socrates1

    I'm not a scientist, thus I leave it up to them to make the initial determination.

    I don't care if the pro-Lifers reject the proposition out of hand.

      #1.18 - Sat Feb 4, 2012 6:41 PM EST
      jfxgillis

      Soc:

      I'm not sure what the point of this article is, then. If science could answer a question you can't ask, would people you don't know accept it?

      • 1 vote
      #1.19 - Sat Feb 4, 2012 7:04 PM EST
      gmross

      Socrates,

      I'm sorry but you continue to beg the question.

      You are defining what a baby is, based solely on your agenda. What if you are wrong? If you truly are against killing a baby, shouldn't you want confirmation of your opinion based on science, not law?

      Following your premise in the above claims we could then call cancer cells a baby, and then it would be illegal to kill them as well, after all they are a form of life, they live inside a human and once they are removed they die, the same as a fetus which is only a set of cells until it forms into a child in the last trimester of a pregnancy, at the time of the last trimester it is illegal to kill the fetus, or by that time the baby.

      I am bored with this now. You are just argueing to argue, so, good bye.

      • 1 vote
      #1.20 - Sat Feb 4, 2012 9:29 PM EST
      Socrates1

      Mr. Gillis...Several points...but perhaps the most germane to your question.

      Pro-Choice...assuming what pc people say to be true..ie. they are against killing a baby, then it would seem to me they would wish to make sure they know, on a scientific basis, when that designation applies.

      Pro-Life...at this point they are in no danger of killing a baby, but, pc people would be a lot better off with scientific evidence rather then the "its my body" argument, which may, or may not, apply.

      gmross...actually it is you that continue to argue just to argue...cancer cells the same as a baby? Right.

        #1.21 - Mon Feb 6, 2012 2:58 PM EST
        jfxgillis

        Soc:

        Pro-Life...at this point they are in no danger of killing a baby, but, pc people would be a lot better off with scientific evidence rather then the "its my body" argument, which may, or may not, apply.

        They don't care. They define "baby" as "from conception" and they do so a priori, i.e., as a matter of metaphysical doctrine. The entire point of their approach is that it is not "scientific."

        Therefore, whether pro-Choicers might or might not accept a "scientific determiniation" (most would, but not unanimously) is irrelevant. We've played these @!$%#ing games with right-wingers before. Why do you think Richard Dawkins finally went ape@!$%# after thirty years of civilly trying to find common ground with dip@!$%# Creationists?

        • 3 votes
        #1.22 - Mon Feb 6, 2012 4:05 PM EST
        Socrates1

        Mr. Gillis....I'm sorry if I'm not making my point as clearly as I should.

        So what?

        1. PC are against killing babies.

        2. PC (supposedly) believe in science.

        3. For their own satisfaction, should they not want to make sure they are not crossing the line?

        In other words, you are still seeing it as a battle between pc and pl, and suggesting it won't be a "win" for the pc side. I'm saying when one is attempting to do the right thing, what does it matter what the other side does, or does not, do?

          #1.23 - Mon Feb 6, 2012 9:56 PM EST
          jfxgillis

          Soc:

          Tell you what. You read the minds of right-wingers and I'll read the minds of liberals. We're both more qualified for those given tasks.

          Now. Let me tell you this AGAIN. "Is this a baby?" is NOT a "scientific" question. Pro-Choicers, because they tend to understand science, know that. Pro-Lifers, because they tend to not understand science, don't.

          Now, if, as you've admitted you're incapable of, you actually produced a scientific question, and if it would be experimentally feasible for scientists to answer it, and if they actually did answer it, and if they presented that answer to Pro-Choicers, probably 95% would accept it.

          • 3 votes
          #1.24 - Tue Feb 7, 2012 9:19 AM EST
          Socrates1

          If I accept what you say to be true, and that the answer cannot be answered scientifically, then it would seem to me that what I suggest is even MORE important.

          Essentially what you are saying is that Pc's don't know at what point a baby becomes a baby, which would suggest, assuming they truly don't wish to kill a baby than they should err on the side of caution.

          Of course, "Is this a baby?", is a scientific question. The only reason that Pcer's suggest otherwise is that the scientific answer doesn't agree with their preferred answer.

          I understand science....and i can tell you that 15 minutes prior to birth a fetus is virtually the same as 15 minutes after, in terms of its bodily functions.

          Let's take C-sections as an example....Remove a fetus at 8 months or 9 months and tell me you see much of a difference twenty years later.

          You are still arguing an agenda because you want it both ways.....I'm simply suggesting you choose one or the other and "man up".

          • 1 vote
          #1.25 - Tue Feb 7, 2012 10:16 PM EST
          jfxgillis

          Soc:

          Essentially what you are saying is that Pc's don't know at what point a baby becomes a baby,

          Sure they do. With the same degree of metaphysical certainty pro-Lifers do.

          Of course, "Is this a baby?", is a scientific question.

          No it is not. It's tautological. (During pregnancy I mean, afterwards, everyone but Peter Singer would probably say "it's a baby.")

          and i can tell you that 15 minutes prior to birth a fetus is virtually the same as 15 minutes after, in terms of its bodily functions.

          In what way? Does it breathe air through its lungs?

          Nope. I want it neither way

          • 2 votes
          #1.26 - Tue Feb 7, 2012 10:54 PM EST
          Socrates1

          Sorry, but all I can get from you is that you are afraid of what the science will say.

          If breathing is the only requirement, than I assume you support keeping those who are completely brain dead alive as well.

            #1.27 - Wed Feb 8, 2012 1:52 PM EST
            jfxgillis

            Soc:

            No, I'm not. I have pretty good idea what a properly formed scientific question would ask, how science would answer it and what my response would be.

            You, on the other hand, would almost certainly reject both the question and the answer anyway, so why the @!$%# should I bother? Like I said, right-wingers have been playing this bad-faith game with their fake idea of "science" for forty years now.

            Homey don't play that no more. You want science to answer, come up with a scientific question. Then I'll answer it to the extent I'm qualified to. You haven't asked a scientific question yet.

            Hint: First define "baby." You have to do that before you can say a baby is different from something that's not a baby, whether it's fetus or a basketball.

            • 2 votes
            #1.28 - Wed Feb 8, 2012 11:09 PM EST
            Freewill

            jfxgillis,

            From a purely scientific and logical standpoint, the question that should be the bedrock of this discussion is , "When does a new human life begin?" Beyond that, other questions as to "viability" or "person-hood" are irrelevant as there can be no further stages of development without a beginning when it comes to life. If one is to assign value to a human life at ANY stage of it's development, it stands to reason that such value must be assigned to its beginning, as no further development can be attained without it. As such, I offer you the following discussion and scientific evidence as to the beginning of a new human life.

            The point of fertilization or conception is clearly the point at which a new human life begins if nature is left to take its course under ordinary circumstances. This is a scientific fact agreed upon by most biologists and medical experts in the field of embryology and teratology. One example here, but I can provide many others if need be:

            "Human development begins at fertilization, the process during which a male gamete or sperm (spermatozoo developmentn) unites with a female gamete or oocyte (ovum) to form a single cell called a zygote. This highly specialized, totipotent cell marked the beginning of each of us as a unique individual."

            "A zygote is the beginning of a new human being (i.e., an embryo)."

            Keith L. Moore, The Developing Human: Clinically Oriented Embryology, 7th edition. Philadelphia, PA: Saunders, 2003. pp. 16, 2.

            You might also peruse the list of sources HERE. Some more good information HERE.

            THIS is among the best scientific and objective compilations of evidence I have found on this subject and the conclusions are undeniable:

            Resolving the question of when human life begins is critical for advancing a reasoned public policy debate over abortion and human embryo research. This article considers the current scientific evidence in human embryology and addresses two central questions concerning the beginning of life: 1) in the course of sperm-egg interaction, when is a new cell formed that is distinct from either sperm or egg?and 2) is this new cell a new human organism—i.e., a new human being? Based on universally accepted scientific criteria, a new cell, the human zygote, comes into existence at the moment of sperm-egg fusion, an event that occurs in less than a second. Upon formation, the zygote immediately initiates a complex sequence of events that establish the molecular conditions required for continued embryonic development. The behavior of the zygote is radically unlike that of either sperm or egg separately and is characteristic of a human organism. Thus, the scientific evidence supports the conclusion that a zygote is a human organism and that the life of a new human being commences at a scientifically well defined “moment of conception.” This conclusion is objective, consistent with the factual evidence, and independent of any specific ethical, moral, political, or religious view of human life or of human embryos.

            Now I have seen several comments made above claiming the pro-choice crowd fails to deal in scientific fact and reason when supporting their position, or that they do not understand the science. I have clearly demonstrated that I understand the science and have backed it with evidence and opinion of several experts in the field, who agree on when a distinctly new human life begins. Discussion beyond these facts revolves around arbitrary assignment of value to that life depending on its stage of development, and to those of us who are scientifically minded, that is unscientific and unacceptable.

            • 1 vote
            #1.29 - Thu Feb 9, 2012 2:47 AM EST
            Freewill

            I'm sorry, I meant pro-life crowd in the first sentence of my last paragraph above. Time to get some shut-eye.

            • 1 vote
            #1.30 - Thu Feb 9, 2012 3:36 AM EST
            jfxgillis

            Freewill:

            Now I have seen several comments made above claiming the pro-Life crowd fails to deal in scientific fact and reason when supporting their position,

            That would be ... me. And me would have been ... entirely correct up to this point.

            However. Note. The question you asked is not the question Soc asked. The question you asked is testable once you define "human life," which is pretty easy. Sperm bangs into egg, egg divides, bingo.

            I presume you think this:

            the scientific evidence supports the conclusion that a zygote is a human organism

            is a "baby" as Soc employed the term?

            • 2 votes
            #1.31 - Thu Feb 9, 2012 7:08 AM EST
            Freewill

            I believe that the zygote is the beginning of the "baby", or of a new human life at any point in its development. It is the alpha of that life without which the rest of that life does not exist. As such, if one is to assign value to human life at any stage of its development, one must consider the same value in its creation and its early stages of development, without which there would be no existence to value. To me this is the ONLY question on this topic and it can be answered scientifically and rationally and without arbitrary or subjective analysis.

            • 1 vote
            #1.32 - Thu Feb 9, 2012 11:16 AM EST
            CL1

            If I understand Socrates correctly, he's bringing up the question of when does 'personhood' begin. We've had countless discussions on this issue. Some suggest the stage of gestation when implantation occurs (after about a week--5-9 days, often on day 9), others say not until the brain is developed, science has tried to push for week 56... I'm with you Freewill... the zygote, then blastocyst (basic mammalian) is not going to become another form of mammal..a pig or a sheep or..; it's a 'human' blastocyst due to its genetic code. I agree, that even without 'awareness' or personhood, it is the beginning of human life at the zygote stage--conception. I do not agree with those that prefer to call "conception" what happens at the stage of implantation, suggesting life doesn't begin before that. They would be correct if the egg was unfertilized, and not a zygote.

            I do have to question that both PL and PC value the life of the baby in the same way. A PL values life as a zygote; a PC values life when it's convenient. :)

            • 3 votes
            #1.33 - Thu Feb 9, 2012 1:14 PM EST
            jfxgillis

            Frewill:

            I believe that the zygote is the beginning of the "baby",

            Cut it out. I'm serious. I don't want to hear half-assed trimming. Soc wants to know what people would say if science could determine the difference between "baby" and "fetus." I said that's not a scientific question, it's tautological. I suspect he didn't know what I meant. I suspect you do.

            In the collection of objects in the universe categorized by the term "baby," is a zygote inside or outside that category? To put it another way, does the term "baby," and all babies, also include within it the "beginning of the 'baby'"?

            • 2 votes
            #1.34 - Thu Feb 9, 2012 4:29 PM EST
            CL1

            Ooops, I meant 56 days not weeks. lol..

            I don't see tautology in the premise; the "personhood" debate tries to define a dichotomy. Personally, however, I do see tautology in the terminology. To me, it's moot.

            Well, I know you're not talking to me, jfx, but.. imo, it won't matter what science thinks (science has already stated that all systems are in place by week *eight*) to a PC mother. It's definitely a 'human' fetus, aka a "baby," at that time (although I see blastocyst as also a human life, as I stated before--simply because it is not going to be a sheep or other as it matures!).

            She will do what she thinks will work best in both the short and long term for both herself and her potential child. A PC mother isn't thinking about 'terminology' or stages of gestation---she's thinking about consequences (too bad she didn't think about them beforehand:). Morality will be up to her; as it is her body and life that need to come first. Any doctor put in the position of having to save one or the other first, will always try to save the mother (I thought so, anyway).

            I thought choice and morality were more the point to the article, and less the scientific baby vs. fetus issue:

            Before we go any further, I'd like to take a look at the above mentioned premise, just to show that it is not simply a "given" and that there is actually an alternative "foundational premise" which might meet the test of being "moral" and yet not protect the fetus. In essence, that alternative involves "choice".

            • 2 votes
            #1.35 - Thu Feb 9, 2012 7:16 PM EST
            Freewill

            jfxgillis,

            Cut it out. I'm serious. I don't want to hear half-assed trimming.

            Cut what out? I pointed out that the only REAL scientific question is the one that I asked and science has answered. This quibbling about what constitutes a "baby", and whether it is the same as a "fetus" is simply a distraction based on arbitrary assignments and convenient terms used to describe the different stages of the development of a human life AFTER its beginning. None of that speaks to the root of the issue of existence and when that unique life came into existence, and I agree that such arguments might be considered tautological.

            To put it another way, I don't care if the zygote fits your definition, or anyone's arbitrary definition, of a "baby". My point is that the question of when a new and unique human life truly begins is what is important. Without assignment of the same value to that beginning and to each of the following stages of development (regardless of what term one wants to use to describe them), assignment of value to subsequent stages of human development really have no basis or meaning. There is no "baby" without first the zygote or the fetus. Most will agree that all human life or existence is precious, and if it is to be considered important to preserve and protect it from non-existence, then it stands to reason that such importance should be consistent from its beginning to its end.

            • 1 vote
            #1.36 - Thu Feb 9, 2012 9:01 PM EST
            Socrates1

            jfx...because I don't agree with you I don't understand your terminology?

            Here's the premise.

            Pro-choice people suggest they are against killing babies.

            Thus, regardless of what anybody else position is, was, or may be, it would seem that those same people, for their own personal peace of mind, would wish to further investigate when a fetus becomes a baby. This has nothing to do with politics, winning, or which side you are on. It has to do with personal integrity, which doesn't seem to enter into your argument at all. (Not your personal integrity, pc's integrity)

            Frankly, the pro-life position is more consistent, certainly not less.

              #1.37 - Thu Feb 9, 2012 9:42 PM EST
              jfxgillis

              freewill:

              Not rilly. I can think of dozens of other "real" scientific questions you could ask on this subject. Or I could accept both your question and your answer and then say, "So what? Not all human life across all stages is entitled to the same level of protection if only for the practical reason that it's impossible to provide it at some stages."

              The question at hand is Soc's: When is fetus a baby? So: Is a zygote a baby?

              Yes or No are the only two acceptable answers.

              I don't care if the zygote fits your definition

              It's not my definition, it's Soc's. He's the one trying to pull some mind stunt that he imagines will leave his interlocutors grasping for answers. I actually like your line of argument. It's well-informed and both true and logically valid if one accepts your major premise (which I don't).

              Unfortunately, it doesn't serve Soc's agenda very well since you, a well-informed pro-Lifer, responded exactly as I predicted earlier. Since you won't give an inch on your end of the dispute, why the @!$%#ety @!$%# should any pro-Choicer ever give an inch on their end?

              So. A baby is an infant human who metabolizes oxygen by way of air breathed through the lungs rather than through the mother's placenta.

              • 2 votes
              #1.38 - Thu Feb 9, 2012 10:33 PM EST
              CL1

              My point is that the question of when a new and unique human life truly begins is what is important.

              Yes. It begins as a zygote; without fertilization, the egg is not a 'life.' Pretty simple.

              However, the morality issue, in my mind, is 'much' larger than when a new life is conceived.

              • 1 vote
              #1.39 - Thu Feb 9, 2012 10:51 PM EST
              jfxgillis

              Soc:

              Still reading pro-Choicers's minds?

              Thank you very much, but we don't give a flying @!$%#ing piece of monkey @!$%# off a piss-stained window what the @!$%# you think about our "peace of mind."

              Does that make you feel better? You can stop worrying now.

              • 2 votes
              #1.40 - Thu Feb 9, 2012 11:02 PM EST
              Freewill

              jfxgillis

              I actually like your line of argument. It's well-informed and both true and logically valid if one accepts your major premise (which I don't).

              Thank you for liking my argument. Having gotten that far, are you saying that you don't accept my premise that a unique human life begins upon conception? That is my major premise you understand? If you do not accept that premise, then please explain your logic or scientific reasoning for such disagreement. You asked me to give an inch...here the @!$%#ety @!$%# (to borrow a phrase) it is...

              ...but we don't give a flying @!$%#ing piece of monkey @!$%# off a piss-stained window what the @!$%# you think about our "peace of mind."

              Why such elegant and colorful prose? Is civil discourse and respect for others really that difficult?

              • 2 votes
              #1.41 - Thu Feb 9, 2012 11:36 PM EST
              jfxgillis

              Freewill:

              Having gotten that far, are you saying that you don't accept my premise that a unique human life begins upon conception?

              No. I do accept that. During the phase of my life when I was transitioning from a practicing Catholic to a committed secular Humanist, I adopted that view, and, oddly enough, through the ups and downs and the change from pro-Life to pro-Choice, I never saw any reason to reject it. So I still hold it.

              No. What I reject is your major premise, your First Principle: That that life is equivalent to human life at all other stages of development, and is therefore entitled to equivalent treatment.

              Why such elegant and colorful prose?

              Because, well, I probably can't answer directly without violating the CoH, so let's just say Soc pissed me off and leave it at that.

              • 2 votes
              #1.42 - Thu Feb 9, 2012 11:49 PM EST
              CL1

              Freewill..

              In my last discussion on the topic of when life begins, there was a health care professional (as self proclaimed), that adamantly argued against the definition of the term conception. I was floored that anyone would define that word as anything other than being 'at the moment of fertilization.' ..She maintained that conception doesn't take place until implantation.

              So, imo, the best place to start with some folks, is to come to a mutual understanding of when conception begins.

              • 2 votes
              #1.43 - Thu Feb 9, 2012 11:59 PM EST
              jfxgillis

              CL1:

              Actually, there's a very good reason for adopting that view, and, oddly enough, by it's own logic, it is incumbent upon the Catholic Church itself to adopt it by doctrine in some instances, and it therefore does so.

              • 3 votes
              #1.44 - Fri Feb 10, 2012 12:25 AM EST
              CL1

              jfx... I understand the incumbency of the Catholic Church (and the union with a soul). But, with her reasoning that a blastocyst is nothing but a 'bag of cells'--no different from a pig or other animal--and that conception doesn't begin until implantation, seems suspect, to me. ..A great and 'handy' argument for the morning after pill.. not that I'm against its use, if that is a woman's choice.. I'm just saying justification comes in all kinds of nonsensical 'packages.'

              • 1 vote
              #1.45 - Fri Feb 10, 2012 12:42 AM EST
              Freewill

              jfxgillis,

              No. What I reject is your major premise, your First Principle: That that life is equivalent to human life at all other stages of development, and is therefore entitled to equivalent treatment.

              Very well. I have explained (or at least I've tried to explain) the reasoning for my belief with respect to that principle. The only way a new human life can progress to the arbitrary point where you or others might assign it some value, is if it is not terminated before it develops to that point. Surely there must be intrinsic value from the moment life begins.

              Could you please explain to me why you believe that the stage of human development has any bearing on the value or sanctity of that life once it has come into existence?

              • 1 vote
              #1.46 - Fri Feb 10, 2012 12:43 AM EST
              jfxgillis

              CL1:

              What difference does it make? In either case the definition resolves to "a blastocyst is not human until implanted." The Church reserves it for special situations like ectopic pregnancies, whereas the person you quote applies it more generally, but the fact that the Church is forced by its own logic to abandon it's otherwise rigid principle tells you there's something very flawed about that rigid principle.

              The person you quote has the advantage of a universally consistent position. The Church does not. The fact is, the blastocyst has ZERO potential of becoming human until it is implanted, and by the very definition freewill just offered, that makes it not human.

              • 2 votes
              #1.47 - Fri Feb 10, 2012 12:54 AM EST
              jfxgillis

              freewill:

              Surely there must be intrinsic value from the moment life begins.

              No, there is not. Or rather, maybe there is and maybe there isn't. You assigning it a priori is a First Principle. Me rejecting it is also a First Principle.

              Could you please explain to me why you believe that the stage of human development has any bearing on the value or sanctity of that life once it has come into existence?

              Actually, I'd rather not at this time and place. It's long and complicated and I don't want such a discussion buried in a sub-thread of a monumentally stupid article. I'll watchlist you and/or you can watchlist me and I'll put up a seed roughly on topic tomorrow. Or you can.

              • 2 votes
              #1.48 - Fri Feb 10, 2012 1:15 AM EST
              CL1

              jfx...When you stated the Church's incumbency, I thought you were referring to the incorporation of a soul at conception (which, to me, is at fertilization, now a zygote), making the zygote a person in the eyes of the Church. I understand science doesn't view the developing embryo as a human until implantation, but the fact that the developing blastocyst would not become a pig if implanted in a pig (after human fertilization) would seem critical to this argument, right? Therefore, it is an undeveloped human embroyo--not just any bag of cells.

              I thought the Church's consistent position was 'life' with a soul at the zygote stage--conception.

              • 2 votes
              #1.49 - Fri Feb 10, 2012 1:28 AM EST
              jfxgillis

              CL1:

              I thought you were referring to the incorporation of a soul at conception (which, to me, is at fertilization, now a zygote),

              I was. Except the Church has an exception to that. And they have to allow it because otherwise treating an ectopic pregancy, which is biologically nothing more than a frequently fatal tumor that happens to have a DNA code different that its host, would be murdering a baby.

              The rule, if you're interested, is that if a blastocyst's only possible function is to act as a frequently fatal tumor, then God in His wisdom must not have ensouled it at conception, and therefore, treating an ectopic pregnancy is not equivalent to killing a baby.

              • 2 votes
              #1.50 - Fri Feb 10, 2012 1:49 AM EST
              CL1

              Thank you for enlightening me on that rule, as I hadn't previously read about the Church's position on ectopic pregnancies.

              • 2 votes
              #1.51 - Fri Feb 10, 2012 2:15 AM EST
              jfxgillis

              CL:

              They've had 2,000 years to get the details straight.

              • 2 votes
              #1.52 - Fri Feb 10, 2012 2:21 AM EST
              CL1

              ..Some of us need more time than others. :)

              That's not a bad thing. I view it as... making sure.

              • 2 votes
              #1.53 - Fri Feb 10, 2012 2:26 AM EST
              CL1

              Oh, and I forgot to say-- that was a terrible thing to say about this article in 1.48---I disagree! ..not that anyone cares, but I had to comment. I find interest in Socrates's indirect approach. I thought the point was actually to expose another way of viewing the subject, but perhaps not after reading 1.37, as I didn't know pc's are against killing babies. Anyway, I enjoyed the article.

              • 2 votes
              #1.54 - Fri Feb 10, 2012 2:47 AM EST
              Freewill

              CL1 at #1.43

              She maintained that conception doesn't take place until implantation.

              So, imo, the best place to start with some folks, is to come to a mutual understanding of when conception begins.

              I agree my friend, but perhaps the problem is in the definitions of the terms. HERE is an excellent article that first appeared in the International Journal of Sociology and Social Policy that defines the terms and gets down to the difference between scientific "fact" as opposed to scientific "myth". In reading this I came to realize that the terms I have been using are also not entirely accurate. As indicated in this article fertilization and its end result, the zygote, represent the beginning of a distinct and separate "human being" not just "human life".

              The issue is not when does human life begin, but rather when does the life of every human being begin.

              I shall endeavor to use the correct terminology from here on out.

              Please see the responses to myths 6 through 8 for a discussion on implantation and the blastocyst. I think this might clarify some of the concerns raised by the "healthcare professional" with whom you discussed these issues.

              ***********************************

              jfxgillis

              Please check out part III. "When does a human person begin?" in this article, and specifically myths 12 through 14. As I mentioned previously, and this scientist agrees, such a question is not a scientific one, but rather a philosophical one. I'd be interested in your take on the logic and reason of the arguments made by this expert. They very much fall in line with my opinions after years of study, although mine is clearly not the equivalent of the in-depth and detailed study of Dr. Dianne Irving, M.A. PhD, a biochemist and biologist with the National Institutes of Health, and specialist in bioethics at the Kennedy Institute of Ethics.

              • 1 vote
              #1.55 - Fri Feb 10, 2012 4:48 AM EST
              CL1

              Freewill..

              I reviewed the information, and I concur with their findings and definitions, as they are juxtaposed with past reference material. The "professional" I implied is among those that subscribe to basic cellular structure in all animals as basicly the same (e.g. organelles), with some differences, which is true; however, as I pointed out before, the genetic codes are different--the blastocyst is that of a human embryo, not that of a pig--and yes, it's a human "being," not just any animal 'life' expanding and hatching. Additionally, I reviewed the section on personhood, and this is also juxtaposed with past materials:

              Myth 13: "A human person begins with 'brain birth,' the formation of the primitive nerve net, or the formation of the cortex — all physiological structures necessary to support thinking and feeling."

              Fact 13: Such claims are all pure mental speculation, the product of imposing philosophical (or theological) concepts on the scientific data, and have no scientific evidence to back them up. As the well-known neurological researcher D. Gareth Jones has succinctly put it, the parallelism between "brain death" and "brain birth" is scientifically invalid. "Brain death" is the gradual or rapid cessation of the functions of a brain. "Brain birth" is the very gradual acquisition of the functions of a developing neural system. This developing neural system is not a brain. He questions, in fact, the entire assumption and asks what neurological reasons there might be for concluding that an incapacity for consciousness becomes a capacity for consciousness once this point is passed. Jones continues that the alleged symmetry is not as strong as is sometimes assumed, and that it has yet to be provided with a firm biological base.41

              Brain birth vs. brain death has been widely analyzed in the personhood discussion; it's apparent there is a substantial difference in the awareness factors.

              Thank you.

              • 1 vote
              #1.56 - Fri Feb 10, 2012 6:10 AM EST
              jfxgillis

              freewill:

              Believe it or not, I've read that article before. And I agree with the author's scientic conclusion but disagree with the author's philosophical conclusions.

              Noting for the record, both you and the cited author (I paraphrase) are essentially calling Soc's question above monumentally stupid. Being, however, on the same side on the philosophical question, you try to avoid statements like "monumentally stuptid" about the statements of your own allies.

              But I don't have to because Soc's my adversary.

              • 1 vote
              #1.57 - Fri Feb 10, 2012 9:22 AM EST
              Freewill

              I try to avoid calling anyone or their opinions names such a "monumentally stupid", adversary or not. I have found that my respect for human life from the very beginning of its being, helps me to maintain that respect throughout. But that's just me and my philosophy. I'd be very interested in discussing our philosophies in this matter my friend as long as it is done in a civil and respectful manner.

              As you can tell from the erratic times of my posts, I only have time/access to Newsvine in very short bursts throughout a typical day, and sometimes not for days. This is the primary reason why I write or seed very few articles, as I would want to moderate them properly but simply do not have the time. However, if you were to write an article on this topic, I will seek it out and join you, if you wish.

              • 2 votes
              #1.58 - Fri Feb 10, 2012 11:19 AM EST
              jfxgillis

              Freewill:

              I try to avoid calling anyone or their opinions names such a "monumentally stupid",

              There's another First Principle we disagree on, then.

              Okay. Deal. If I do an article it'll take me a couple of days at least.

              It's usually regarded as at least unseemly, and in this case it would downright rude, for folks to link away from an NV thread to another NV thread owned by the linker, so I'll email or put a comment on one of your threads to tickle your tracker, okay?

              • 1 vote
              #1.59 - Fri Feb 10, 2012 11:26 AM EST
              Freewill

              Sounds good. I look forward to your article.

              • 2 votes
              #1.60 - Fri Feb 10, 2012 2:26 PM EST
              Socrates1

              Well, interesting conversation..but it doesn't take much to guess which participant would be categorized as from the Left.

              What I consider to be "monumentally stupid", not to mention hypocritical, is to base one's position only on the position of the "other side", which is the point, and premise, of the article, and the subject which jfx has continuously danced around. Realizing the fact that there is an inconsistency in the pro-choice position, insults soon follow.

              Link all you want....ignoring the spirit is simply hypocritical and, frankly, in my view, nothing to be proud of.

              • 1 vote
              #1.61 - Fri Feb 10, 2012 10:15 PM EST
              Freewill

              jfxgillis,

              I have been keeping an eye out but have not seen the article that you were going to prepare to further discuss this very important topic. I still look forward to that article and ensuing discussion my friend.

              In the meantime, I have been doing a bit of reading about secular Humanism to try and get a better handle on your point of view, as you had mentioned in one of your comments above that you had during the course of your life moved to become a "committed secular Humanist". Being only somewhat familiar with that term I wanted to gain greater insight, and found that in some ways my scientific outlook (being an engineer and amateur philosopher of sorts), and my tendency toward opinion based on logic and reason, will leave my mind very much open to your views.

              In the course of my reading I stumbled upon this fascinating debate between two secular Humanists on the subject of abortion - HERE. I think you might find it as interesting as I did. As I was reading the chronicle of this debate it occurred to me, based on the short discussion we have had here on THIS vine thus far, that our debate (were you to post your article and were I to respond) would have gone very much along the same lines as the discussion between Ms. Roth and Mr. Carrier. Although I think there are some aspects of both of their arguments upon which we might improve and/or further disprove.

              Your ideology as a committed Humanist is interesting to me as it posits that opinion, morality, and finally ethics are not to be treated as hard substance, but rather as personal "human" properties that one develops over the span of one's life experience and ones experience as part of a larger society (i.e. societal ethics). As such, Humanists can be quite open-minded and can hold opposing views on many subjects both based on logic and reason. I find that to be very intriguing and I look forward to civil debate with someone with such a mindset.

              • 1 vote
              #1.62 - Tue Feb 21, 2012 11:40 PM EST
              jfxgillis

              Freewill:

              Oh @!$%#. I got all wrapped up in (an actually related project,) the Bishops/contraception thing, and it slipped my mind. Sorry. But I'm working on a series based on the genre I invented for the Bishops thing and it will go perfect in there. I have a .txt file open for running notes and I'm copying your whole comment into it.

              To leave you with at least an indication of my position, in the Early Church (Augustine? I'm hazily remembering) ensoulment was regarded to have happened only like after 40 days for essentially practical reasons. That was in effect the incremental conferring of "right to life" in a way that might be useful for us to consider today for almost the exact opposite reason as those of Old. They didn't know enough about the biology of it all. We know too much.

              • 1 vote
              #1.63 - Wed Feb 22, 2012 12:33 AM EST
              Freewill

              jfxgillis

              I try to avoid the "ensoulment" argument as it tends to incite an immediate response to the effect that I am some sort of religious-right wack-job bent on the enslavement of women. After that, no reasonable discussion can be had. I often ask those who make that charge:

              What benefit do you think I, and others like me, seek/get from continuing to make known our opinions in this matter? Do you think we are in this for ourselves, and if so what is it that you think we gain? In my case, and in the case of every pro-life person that I know, I can assure you that we are in it to defend the life of one who cannot yet defend her/himself, to defend the sanctity of human life and our humanity, nothing more.

              Now consider the reasons why some might choose abortion to end an “unwanted” pregnancy, in most cases brought about by the choice and actions of two individuals. Then consider the reasons why a doctor or clinic might wish to perform abortions. Are the reasons you’ve listed really equal to the value of a human life? Pointing out the facts and the reality in this whole process does not mean that I hate women or that I feel women should be without choices when it comes to their body. It means that I am confronting the honest truth, and I’m asking that others consider their responsibility as human beings to accept the consequences of their choices/actions that resulted in the creation of another unique and valuable human being. I have not taken this position lightly or without a great deal of thought, nor would I expect anyone else to. I’m only asking that you consider it.

              I believe that one can couch the biological fact with respect to the moment that marks the beginning of a distinct individual human being in whatever philosophy or theology one wishes, but it does not change the embryological science that has proven the point at which a new human being comes into existence. After that the discussion becomes philosophical with human developmental and embryological facts thrown in here and there. I tend more toward the biological and science based aspects, while you and perhaps other Humanists tend to get more philosophical, which is fine but I believe prone to much more of the subjective as opposed to the objective. I found many of Mr. Carrier's arguments to be overly subjective, and quite honestly opening the flood-gates to some very slippery slopes. But that is what I'd like to discuss with you my friend, so please let me know when you are ready.

              • 1 vote
              #1.64 - Wed Feb 22, 2012 1:03 AM EST
              jfxgillis

              Freewill:

              proven the point at which a new human being comes into existence

              Well, ...... No, as a matter of fact. Because an embryo is not a "being." Wanna call that a "becoming" instead of a "being" and I'll be okay with it. But to call it a "being" is to win the argument for yourself by unstated premise.

              I'm very well aware that the ensoulment argument is essential bull@!$%#. I'm simply looking for a way to think of the issue analogically. I looked it up meanwhile and it was more like 100 days in Augustine's time, at quickening.

              But we're back exactly where I predicted we'd be a few weeks ago. There's no point whatsoever in trying to "find" a point after fertilization but before birth where pro-Choicers would agree "that's a baby" because no matter what point was picked, pro-Lifers will always just move the goalposts again closer to the insane place they always want it, at conception. It's insane to invest a blastocyst with the full range of humans rights because there's no even theoretical mechanism for protecting those rights.

              Soc:

              To make up for my derision previously, A. MacArthur's abortion article, which I see you're on, is way stupider than this one.

              • 1 vote
              #1.65 - Wed Feb 22, 2012 1:40 AM EST
              Socrates1

              Nice discussion.

              1. I have problems with secular humanism..but that would be a subject for another time. My views are actually pretty close, but there is a nuance that is important to me.

              2. When does life begin? I understand why you may think it "stupid", but otherwise we are left with the choice of conception or birth, and the discussion will never end. As stated previously, cut out the nonsense that underlies the problem, and a real debate might begin..(not your nonsense, the general nonsense).

              3. Yes, AMac. Well, thanks for that...relatively speaking. I actually appreciated the fact he went for logic...and had hoped for a discussion which might lead to my central point. Room for another article....oh well...............

              • 1 vote
              #1.66 - Wed Feb 22, 2012 2:19 AM EST
              jfxgillis

              Soc:

              we are left with the choice of conception or birth, and the discussion will never end.

              Then the discussion will never end because there's no physical way that you can practicably treat a zygote like an infant. It's prima facie ridiculous.

              The other reason, of course, is that you pro-Lifers will never let it end because you won't budge from your extreme position, ever, and you @!$%#ing know it, and not only that, I @!$%#ing know it. So if you won't ever budge and I know you won't ever budge, why the @!$%# on earth should I budge? Because of your threat to never shut up about it?

              I swear to God, the next time I do abortion I'm going to start from the Medieval Scandinavian position, which is essentially that "it's a baby" after it's first birthday. That'll leave me negotiating room.

              • 1 vote
              #1.67 - Wed Feb 22, 2012 2:38 AM EST
              Freewill

              jfxgillis

              But to call it a "being" is to win the argument for yourself by unstated premise.

              Actually, no, I was using the term as I feel it is appropriate based on the reasoning used by my cited source in comment #1.55 above. The zygote IS a "being" as is evidenced by its new existence (to be) and it is uniquely "human", hence a "human being". As I and most any embryologist have indicated before, it is simply the very first stage in the life of what even you will eventually call a "human being", and without which further being or existence is not possible for that unique life. I endeavor not to win an argument here, but rather simply acknowledge the biological facts and clear up the terminology.

              It's insane to invest a blastocyst with the full range of humans rights because there's no even theoretical mechanism for protecting those rights.

              Whoa! Hang on a second. A minute ago you came down on me claiming that I was attempting to win an argument on false or unstated premise. Yet here you are indicating that the crux of my argument is to "invest the blastocyst with a full range of human rights", when in fact the ONLY "right" we are talking about here is the right to life. Furthermore, what do you mean by, "...there's no even theoretical mechanism for protecting that right?" There is a very POSITIVE and natural mechanism for protecting that right to life, via allowing a pregnancy to go to term and by not ending that life via unnatural means, i.e. abortion. Allow the developing human being to fulfill its natural purpose to continue its development via birth and the stages thereafter. The "mechanism" is entirely natural and has a definite and scientifically observable purpose. Lastly, when one repeatedly characterizes another person's well-reasoned argument/opinion as "insane", when in fact it simply presents an objective/scientific position against a purely subjective one, then perhaps there is no point whatsoever in continued discussion. Have I perhaps misjudged the basic belief system of a secular Humanist here?

              • 1 vote
              #1.68 - Wed Feb 22, 2012 3:19 AM EST
              CL1

              Once again, I have to comment on logic when I see it. Yes, it's a being and a human being, as a zygote, despite a science report that I read in the past, that I am unable to locate, stating that recent research had determined that through the blastocyst phase, before implantation, the human development is no different than other mammalia. My argument remains that despite being essentially a bag of undeveloped cells, if this developing 'being' were implanted in another mammal, it would not become that other mammal's offspring. Therefore, it is a human embryo at an early gestational phase. Anything wrong with that reasoning?

              • 1 vote
              #1.69 - Wed Feb 22, 2012 3:30 AM EST
              Freewill

              So if you won't ever budge and I know you won't ever budge, why the @!$%# on earth should I budge?

              Is that all this means to you jfxgillis? Who will budge and who won't? I thought that two of the basic tenets of secular Humanism were:

              1. A commitment to the use of critical reason, factual evidence and scientific methods of inquiry in seeking solutions to human problems and answers to important human questions.

              2. A constant search for objective truth, with the understanding that new knowledge and experience constantly alter our imperfect perception of it.

              How exactly does one claim to live by these tenets and then get angry when other facts, evidence, and opinions are presented for one's consideration? I for one have already "budged" my friend, as have you. I was once pro-choice and by thorough study of the science of embryology and logical and reasoned examination of philosophical concepts of morality and ethics, and study of the meaning of "humanity", I found my way to my current opinion. You went the other way from perhaps a theological position as a Catholic to a secular Humanist's view. What shall either of us do now other than to express our opinions and hope that we can perhaps impact the opinion of others? Maybe compare notes? Challenge each other to reassess our positions? A reaction of anger over the seemingly firm position of others, many who have good logical reasons for those positions, is irrational at best my friend. You wish to "negotiate" yet you are unwilling to listen to the evidence, logic or reason of others, or accept that your own evidence, logic, or reason might be challenged. That is hardly Humanism my friend.

              • 1 vote
              #1.70 - Wed Feb 22, 2012 3:43 AM EST
              Socrates1

              Nicely stated.

              From my perspective, calling me a "pro-lifer" actually indicates that I have completely failed to make one my major points, which is almost diametrically opposed to such a label and the paradigm which it suggests.

              • 1 vote
              #1.71 - Wed Feb 22, 2012 12:35 PM EST
              jfxgillis

              Freewill:

              when in fact the ONLY "right" we are talking about here is the right to life.

              Duh. That's the one that matters. "Right to Life" is the category within which all those other rights are contained.

              To say a blastocyst has a "right to life" is also to say that 21 years and 9 months later it has the right to purchase and consume alcohol.

              Soc:

              Please. You gave yourself away when you said it boiled down to either life at conception or a perpetual argument about anywhere else in the timeline. What you're trying to do here is advance the pro-Life agenda with some not-as-clever-as-you-think imaginary contradiction in pro-Choice thinking.

              Like I said, the best thing about it is that as not-clever as it is, A Mac's on the other side is even more not-clever.

              • 1 vote
              #1.72 - Wed Feb 22, 2012 1:31 PM EST
              Socrates1

              Please. You gave yourself away when you said it boiled down to either life at conception or a perpetual argument about anywhere else in the timeline

              I don't think so.

              but otherwise we are left with the choice of conception or birth,

              Seems you might have left out the "rest of the story".

              The thing is, to me, it is somewhere in between.

              The second thing is, which you have completely missed, is that there is no unrestricted "right to life".

              • 1 vote
              #1.73 - Wed Feb 22, 2012 1:54 PM EST
              jfxgillis

              Soc:

              You are correct. I apologize.

              I answered this morning without having re-read what you wrote last night.

              • 1 vote
              #1.74 - Wed Feb 22, 2012 2:04 PM EST
              Socrates1

              Thank you.

              I don't mind people disagreeing with me...I just want to make sure its me with whom they are disagreeing.

              • 2 votes
              #1.75 - Wed Feb 22, 2012 2:23 PM EST
              Reply
              obie-one

              Socrates, you make a good point and I would like to advance it forward with my thoughts.

              Just as in your scenerio of the sinking ship, the parent, the father implied is put into a situation where he must make a most trying decision,there is nobody else there that can help him make it and he must act according to what his heart tells him to do.

              So lies too the choice of an abortion. For it is the woman who is faced with the sinking ship and though may not be totally alone in doing so she must follow her decision as if she were; for to rely on anything outside of herself she risks her decision in being right for herself.

              So I agree that it is important to understand the point in which life starts , but would say that it should be amongst woman that this is found. Through science and the insight in which only a woman can possess.

              Men and politics should be left out of it and we should all accept the conclusion that is found. Religion should then enter by allowing all of us to support that which we have called life by the best means we possess.

              This should enable us to release the idea that we protect the fetus at all costs ,but if it grows up poor we shall not feed it, if it grows up ignorant we shall not educate it and if it grows up "different" we shall not ignore it.

              For in the box of chocolates that life presents itself of, sometimes one must eat the ones that they are not partial to , to find the one they cheerish most.............

              • 5 votes
              Reply#2 - Tue Jan 31, 2012 7:47 AM EST
              Baron von Steuben

              It would be subjective to remove men from the discussion because we cannot understand a woman's viewpoint. If this were to be scientific, the view point of the woman would be meaningless, the only question remaining being when precisely a fetus becomes a baby. Viewpoint and personal feelings are irrelevant to such a discussion, but since humans can't put their emotions aside, such a proposition is implausible.

              • 1 vote
              #2.1 - Tue Jan 31, 2012 3:47 PM EST
              Socrates1

              My response is that I'm not sure what gender has to do with it.

              If we all agree that a baby has a right to live, the only question that remains is defining the term "baby" in a scientific manner.

                #2.2 - Tue Jan 31, 2012 9:34 PM EST
                canary-in-the-coal-mine

                fine then - take it out of the mother and see if it can live on its own. IF it can then it's a "baby" if it CANNOT then it's a piece of dead tissue. IF you are the one carrying the developing fetus then YOU have a say in the matter. IF you are NOT, then your say is worth precisely the same as any bum on the street - it's worth NOTHING. Remember - Roe v wade is SETTLED LAW and there is precisely NOTHING you can do about it except to change the COURT (and the court seems reluctant to make any changes - preferring to leave it up to the STATES, mostly)

                I can and do support the right of any woman to carry a fetus to birth. I can and do support the right of any woman to terminate a pregnancy at any time during the 1st trimester without ANY interference by government. ANY GOVERNMENT

                  #2.3 - Thu Feb 9, 2012 11:39 PM EST
                  Socrates1

                  I'm "pretty sure" that one can't "live on one's own" for several years after birth.

                    #2.4 - Fri Feb 10, 2012 10:17 PM EST
                    Reply
                    Andrew-1162039

                    Without arguing over the specifics of my example, the point is that the pro-choice movement has not attempted to make that argument other than in those cases when the mother's life might be at risk should the pregnancy go full term.

                    The analogy you presented above is directly in line with the Roe v. Wade ruling which states the rights of the parent to their own body and own health decisions outweigh the fetuses rights to use the parents body against their wishes. I've seen it used repeatedly in various forms.

                    must be forcefully involved in advocating the funding and staffing of a valid research project which answers the question on a scientific, not religious, basis.

                    Fetal development is pretty well understood. Sentience, i.e. self awareness, in fact isn't established until around the first year of a babies life at the earliest. The baby can feel pain, respond to stimuli, and has upper brain function at this point however, so to be humane the issue isn't sentience, but rather the development of a central nervous system in conjunction with the upper brain function that processes pain rather than basic stimuli response. The central nervous system appears around 22 weeks, the upper brain function only appears late in the third trimester. Again, we know the science pretty well. The 22 week mark is right in line with where we already place a limit on abortions. Seems to be pretty scientifically warranted to me.

                    • 13 votes
                    Reply#3 - Tue Jan 31, 2012 8:03 AM EST
                    Baron von Steuben

                    Cognitive awareness doesn't even occur until around age four. Up until that point, long-term memories are not formed and logical reasoning is not possible.

                      #3.1 - Tue Jan 31, 2012 3:49 PM EST
                      Andrew-1162039

                      My one year number was more referring to a general self awareness, like the kind of self consciousness that allows a baby to identify oneself in a mirror. I would agree that a more nuanced consciousness with reasoning and the cognitive skills to think in a structured manner isn't present until around three years or later.

                      http://blogs.babycenter.com/mom_stories/are-babies-self-conscious/

                        #3.2 - Tue Jan 31, 2012 4:13 PM EST
                        Socrates1

                        Fine, assuming what you say to be true then I guess that rights begin after one year?

                          #3.3 - Tue Jan 31, 2012 9:35 PM EST
                          Sparrow-2863685

                          Cognitive awareness doesn't even occur until around age four. Up until that point, long-term memories are not formed and logical reasoning is not possible.

                          I'd have to disagree with this from a personal perspective. I have memories that reach back to the age of 2! Vague and few yes, but they're there. One in particular was evidently traumatic (I don't remember the trauma itself, but particular details of the circumstances surrounding it are very clear), but the overwhelming majority are happy memories.

                            #3.4 - Wed Feb 1, 2012 5:58 AM EST
                            Baron von Steuben

                            It's not absolute, that's a baseline for it. Some people may have earlier memories, but that would be rare.

                            • 1 vote
                            #3.5 - Wed Feb 1, 2012 9:04 AM EST
                            Socrates1

                            Either way, does that mean that "abortions" should be acceptable up to age 1, or age 4?

                              #3.6 - Thu Feb 2, 2012 12:37 AM EST
                              Baron von Steuben

                              My vote is for four.

                              • 1 vote
                              #3.7 - Thu Feb 2, 2012 8:36 AM EST
                              canary-in-the-coal-mine

                              let's get REAL folks - rights begin at birth (and you damned well KNOW IT) At the point of viability (a sliding point in time depending sometime after roughly 20 weeks gestation) the fetus is VIABLE - able to breathe on its own outside the development chamber of the woman's uterus.

                              Of course, current thinking seems to assign no responsibility for "life after birth" to those who seem to protest loudest so keep that development underway (regardless of the wishes of the woman or the doctor). Make 'em be BORN, then ignore 'em.

                                #3.8 - Thu Feb 9, 2012 11:46 PM EST
                                Socrates1

                                Huh?

                                  #3.9 - Fri Feb 10, 2012 10:18 PM EST
                                  Reply
                                  nica1829

                                  Socrates, a very thought provoking article. I would love to get into it more, but I am not up to it today. But I wanted you to know that even though we stand on opposite sides of this issue you put some very good points out there.

                                  • 5 votes
                                  Reply#4 - Tue Jan 31, 2012 8:08 AM EST
                                  Uthaclena

                                  This is good, this is how matters of import should be presented and discussed.

                                  I tend to be absolutist on the pro-choice side of the issue, but I am certainly uncomfortable as the pregnancy progresses into its final stages. As others including Carl Sagan have noted, there is no significant difference between a fetus one day before it's born and a baby one day after it's birth.

                                  I ground my own perspective in what I consider the natural, biological baseline absent any medical intervention: the birth process is the last opportunity for the fetus - and the mother - to die from the reproductive cycle. Therefore, I support the absolute sovereignty of the pre-existing person, the woman.

                                  That said, unless there was a known danger to her, I would urge most pregnant women in the final trimester to complete the process, because I do think that is a more humane choice. But, regardless, I support her choice, whether I agree with it or not.

                                  • 9 votes
                                  Reply#5 - Tue Jan 31, 2012 8:50 AM EST
                                  Socrates1

                                  Thank you...nica and uthaclean...for your thoughtful responses.

                                  As I mention in the article, as far as I know pro-choice and pro-life people agree that babies have rights which mean the definition is the thing. In that case, "it's the woman's choice" doesn't really address the problem. It seems to me that both sides agree that it is not the woman's choice to kill her baby.

                                    #5.1 - Tue Jan 31, 2012 9:40 PM EST
                                    nica1829

                                    As mentioned by others & myself earlier. Is it ok for me to tell you that you "killed" my daughter because you did not give her a kidney that she needed to save her life? How is it ANY different?

                                      #5.2 - Wed Feb 1, 2012 6:56 AM EST
                                      Socrates1

                                      If you don't know, I really don't think I can explain it to you.

                                      Frankly, it is the kind of argument you are presenting that this article is designed to avoid.

                                      Do you, or do you not, believe that a baby, using your own definition, should have legal protection?

                                        #5.3 - Thu Feb 2, 2012 12:40 AM EST
                                        canary-in-the-coal-mine

                                        asking a simple question - where (at what point in time) does a "baby" become a baby? I hold that it's a viability. Trouble is that that viability point in time is rather difficult to pinpoint. So conventional wisdom is to back off, say, 6 weeks, and set the time limit on abortion on demand at that point - of course, that is based on KNOWING EXACTLY WHEN CONCEPTION HAPPENED.

                                          #5.4 - Thu Feb 9, 2012 11:50 PM EST
                                          Reply
                                          jfxgillis

                                          Soc:

                                          Honestly, I think you must be joking.

                                          Even if answering such a metaphysical question were possible utilizing the scientific method, it would never be the pro-Choice that would have to be forced to be involved.

                                          • 6 votes
                                          Reply#6 - Tue Jan 31, 2012 10:19 AM EST
                                          Socrates1

                                          What "metaphysical question"? We're talking science here.

                                          • 1 vote
                                          #6.1 - Tue Jan 31, 2012 9:41 PM EST
                                          jfxgillis

                                          Soc:

                                          This one:

                                          at what point the fetus magically turns into a "baby".

                                          That's a metaphysical question. Strangely enough, Roe v. Wade answered it as well as can be expected: The first three months, we know it isn't. The last three months, we know it is. The middle three months ... we dunno.

                                          Unless you think the pro-Life movement would accept precision in narrowing down that middle three months, like I said, it won't be the pro-Choicers that would have to be forced, it'd be the pro-Lifers.

                                          • 4 votes
                                          #6.2 - Tue Jan 31, 2012 9:53 PM EST
                                          Reply
                                          hugh b

                                          Soc Rates, it is nobody's business but the mothers'.

                                          Whatever grows inside her, from her, by her, or with her it is her business and her business only as to how that issue progresses.

                                          Her free will, her energy, her involvement, her decision.

                                          No church, no government, no law, no regulation, no movement may involve itself beyond the boundary of the woman herself.

                                          There is no debate or argument. My business is my business.

                                          • 5 votes
                                          Reply#7 - Tue Jan 31, 2012 10:50 AM EST
                                          fernando-2143457

                                          I have a little issue with this, what about if the "mother" is doing crack and harming the fetus/baby inside? Should the government protect that fetus/baby from the person who is hurting it, (the mother)?

                                            #7.1 - Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:23 AM EST
                                            Ian-2690048

                                            There is no direct law against doing drugs while pregnant. Which I would say is good as that too would be a ridiculous breach of privacy by the government. Most states do have laws that require reporting to the proper authorities when a baby is born addicted to drugs. At that point CPS can take the child away and in some states the mother can, at that point, be charged with neglect or child abuse.

                                            • 1 vote
                                            #7.2 - Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:44 AM EST
                                            hugh b

                                            drugs in food, antibiotics in food, contamination from pollution, the list is endless isn't it

                                            so gov't sanctioned drugs are okay, just not anything else

                                            again, free will

                                            is it okay to deliver preemies, fetuses that would otherwise be miscarriages, the cost has been hidden by insurance and costs billions of dollars a year, and that doesn't include cost after preemies leave the hospital...but this has just been a backdoor pro-life action? the cost associated with premature care is enormous, why isn't it part of the health care debate? why because it has been a fraud, passed on through the corrupt influence of insurance

                                            • 3 votes
                                            #7.3 - Tue Jan 31, 2012 1:06 PM EST
                                            Socrates1

                                            hugh b...you seem to have missed the entire point of the article. Perhaps you might give it another go?

                                              #7.4 - Tue Jan 31, 2012 9:42 PM EST
                                              Reply
                                              sunshine girl-685508

                                              Socrates, your self-defense analogy is one I use as well. Except instead of a "Sophie's Choice" type of scenario, I focus on just two people stranded in the middle of the ocean- You and someone whom you must keep alive AND afloat because they are unconscious, need help breathing and cannot swim.

                                              You either know right at the moment they are entrusted into your hands that you cannot sustain their life AND yours.

                                              Or

                                              After trying your best to keep them and yourself alive, you begin to get tired, unable to thred water and keep them afloat.

                                              Every person and that includes WOMEN have the right to defend their own body and fight for their own survival even if it means ending another's life. Justifiable self-defense.

                                              And that is when another human being is involved. Far less an entity that is not yet a human being.

                                              But you do raise an interesting dilemma and that is, WHEN do we determine that another human being is involved. For me, (I am pro-choice) that is when the fetus can survive and continue to develop outside the womb BUT would do better if allowed to develop inside the womb. Then should the very tragic and unfortunate choice of ending its life have to be made, it should be made only if it is a question of self-defense.

                                              Any choice made before is about preventing a human being from even developing NOT killing an existing human being.

                                              • 6 votes
                                              Reply#8 - Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:08 AM EST
                                              Socrates1

                                              Thanks for your comment...My point, which you seem to recognize, is that this particular argument is not being used on the pro-choice side, ie. when two persons are involved than it no longer is a question of choice.

                                                #8.1 - Tue Jan 31, 2012 10:06 PM EST
                                                Reply
                                                gmross

                                                Socates, this is again a place you don't want the church, the government, the law, or regulation to go, it is telling a person what they can and cannot do with their body, it is taking freedom of choice out of their hands and it is undermining the Constitution.

                                                • 3 votes
                                                Reply#9 - Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:14 AM EST
                                                Socrates1

                                                gmross. I'm afraid you might have missed the point of the article. The point you are attempting to make is irrelevent and/or not being disputed in the article.

                                                • 1 vote
                                                #9.1 - Tue Jan 31, 2012 10:08 PM EST
                                                gmross

                                                It obviously follows that even those who are pro-choice, if they are to have any consistency at all, must be forcefully involved in advocating the funding and staffing of a valid research project which answers the question on a scientific, not religious, basis. For them to do otherwise would be to expose them to charges that their actions are in opposition to their stated position that the rights which are afforded to a baby are no less than any other citizen.

                                                Didn't you write this in your article?

                                                But you do raise an interesting dilemma and that is, WHEN do we determine that another human being is involved. For me, (I am pro-choice) that is when the fetus can survive and continue to develop outside the womb BUT would do better if allowed to develop inside the womb. Then should the very tragic and unfortunate choice of ending its life have to be made, it should be made only if it is a question of self-defense.

                                                Any choice made before is about preventing a human being from even developing NOT killing an existing human being.

                                                And wasn't this an answer to your article written above?

                                                Aren't you asking everyone on the vine to give their opinion on what you wrote? Or, am I just assuming too much here? Is it possible that you only want people that agree with you to answer?

                                                My answer to your article and to the post #8;

                                                Socates, this is again a place you don't want the church, the government, the law, or regulation to go, it is telling a person what they can and cannot do with their body, it is taking freedom of choice out of their hands and it is undermining the Constitution.

                                                What you are wanting the pro-choicers to do is to spend money proving something that has already been stated and is a point of law already in Roe v. Wade. No one has stated that a baby should be aborted, what they have said is what the law says, that an unwanted FETUS, which is a group of cells in a womans womb can be aborted. A baby is a child that has been born and is out side of the womb and is breathing on its own. Pro-lifers would have a woman carry a fetus to term even if that fetus was the result of rape or incest.

                                                • 1 vote
                                                #9.2 - Thu Feb 2, 2012 12:55 PM EST
                                                Socrates1

                                                And yet you continue to make the same argument against a scientific determination as to what it is that defines the term "baby".

                                                Having a Supreme Court Justice arbitrarily make that decision would seem to go against the Left's claim to using all available information to make an accurate determination.

                                                You seem to be confusing Law with Science, and yet if the situation was to be reversed I'd imagine you would be the first in line to point out the difference. After all, abortion was illegal at one time.

                                                You state what you Believe is the definition of what a baby is, which seems to rest on the moment the baby is born. If this is so, what possible medical reason is there to provide any medical care to a fetus prior to birth?

                                                  #9.3 - Thu Feb 2, 2012 11:00 PM EST
                                                  Reply
                                                  magnoliaave

                                                  You can't go on the presmie that "my business is my business". If that was so, then, there would be no laws. I could do whatever I wanted to 'cause it is my business!

                                                  Wow, Socrates, you make a good point! What does one do? I can't imagine having to make that choice. I think I would delay so long that we would all drown!

                                                  I am pro choice, but in my heart, I am not! What must a woman feel after she has aborted her baby?

                                                    Reply#10 - Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:16 AM EST
                                                    kj031056-1

                                                    34 years ago, I aborted a 7 week embryo. I have always felt it was the right decision for me to make......I have regretted getting into the situation, but have not regretted having the abortion. I am 55, a mother and grandmother. I LOVE babies and MOST children.

                                                    • 5 votes
                                                    #10.1 - Tue Jan 31, 2012 12:22 PM EST
                                                    magnoliaave

                                                    Thank you for sharing, kj. I, too, I love MOST children!

                                                      #10.2 - Tue Jan 31, 2012 1:21 PM EST
                                                      hugh b

                                                      when it comes to my body, its my business, so it is my business

                                                      you nor anyone else has a right to tell me what to do with it

                                                      we aren't talking about laws outside of a person, so why argue something that wasn't said

                                                      oh yes, to make believe you're making a valid point

                                                      but lets address it at the front end of the issue rather than the result. the root cause is poverty, ignorance, and disregard for the responsibility of birth control. but as conservatives want it, destroy education, keep people in poverty, and continue the divisive debates

                                                      what does loving children have to do with anything

                                                      • 1 vote
                                                      #10.3 - Tue Jan 31, 2012 4:06 PM EST
                                                      Socrates1

                                                      I appreciate the comments, but they don't really address the central issue I attempted to discuss in the article.

                                                      Still, thank you for your interest.

                                                        #10.4 - Tue Jan 31, 2012 10:10 PM EST
                                                        Reply
                                                        Ian-2690048

                                                        Uh, we already understand fetal development. Have for decades. That has no bearing on the argument that a woman's body is her own. She's not a living incubator who is forced to do something she doesn't want simply because she was impregnated.

                                                        • 4 votes
                                                        Reply#11 - Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:29 AM EST
                                                        Socrates1

                                                        Actually it does have everything to do with "a woman's body being her own".

                                                        As to being a living incubator, etc., using your point of view, parents should also not be held responsible for their off spring in any other case either, and yet they are. Why, for example should a father be required to provide any support, if he doesn't want to, simply because he impregnated some woman?

                                                        If we "understand" fetal development, why the hue and cry anytime pictures are shown and/or classes are recommended studying such things?

                                                          #11.1 - Tue Jan 31, 2012 10:14 PM EST
                                                          kj031056-1

                                                          If we "understand" fetal development, why the hue and cry anytime pictures are shown

                                                          Because we all know that the anti-choice/pro-life people use pictures of late-term pregnancies that were aborted......we all know that this is less than 1% of all abortions, and that they are done for medical/theraputic reasons.

                                                          No one would have a problem with showing the picture of an aborted 9week fetus, which is about the size of a grape and about 88% of abortions are performed by this time......

                                                          I'm willing to bet that the vast majority of pro-choicers are fine with the sentient cut-off of 22-24 weeks, because if the fetus is viable it shouldn't be aborted at that stage unless it's for medical/therapuetic reasons.....

                                                          • 2 votes
                                                          #11.2 - Tue Jan 31, 2012 10:28 PM EST
                                                          Socrates1

                                                          Frankly, we don't "all" know that "they are done for medical/theraputic reasons...but, lets assume for the moment that "we" do, how does that change things in light of the fact that, as I suggest, both pro-life and pro-choice advocates agree that a baby has rights?

                                                          No one would have a problem with showing the picture of an aborted 9week fetus, which is about the size of a grape and about 88% of abortions are performed by this time......

                                                          Sure... no problem here. Just two points. Once again, a scientific project to determine the point where a baby becomes a baby is still relevent. And, secondly, how about the other 12%? If a baby is a baby it deserves the same amount of protection as anyone else, if its not it doesn't.

                                                          I'm willing to bet that the vast majority of pro-choicers are fine with the sentient cut-off of 22-24 weeks, because if the fetus is viable it shouldn't be aborted at that stage unless it's for medical/therapuetic reasons.....

                                                          Don't be so sure, but I return to the subject of the article. At the scientific point a baby becomes a baby, both sides should agree that the baby has rights....right?

                                                            #11.3 - Tue Jan 31, 2012 10:56 PM EST
                                                            nica1829

                                                            A woman also has rights, not to have to give her life up to save another. When we start forcing people to use their body or parts of the body to insure the survival of another, we are really going down the wrong path. Who gets to determine who has the right to survive - strangers, the government OR the person whose body will be used to insure the survival of another? Do I have the right to tell you to give me one of your kidneys to save my daughter? If you don't give it willingly can I incarcerate you until you do?

                                                            AND before you say that it is only 9 months let me disabuse you of that. As a woman that gave birth twice & have had 4 pregnancies the effects last a lifetime. It is not 9 months then poof everything goes back to pre-pregnancy. Changes are mental, emotional as well as physical. All have lasting effects.

                                                            • 1 vote
                                                            #11.4 - Wed Feb 1, 2012 7:01 AM EST
                                                            Socrates1

                                                            You continue to use the very argument I have already suggested is fallacious, and based purely on emotion....in large part, to avoid the very solution I suggest.

                                                            Do you believe that a mother should be able to kill a one year old....yes...or....no?

                                                              #11.5 - Thu Feb 2, 2012 12:41 AM EST
                                                              nica1829

                                                              Then I guess your whole argument is not about abortion & pro-choice then is it? If you are talking about women killing one year olds.

                                                                #11.6 - Thu Feb 2, 2012 6:36 AM EST
                                                                Socrates1

                                                                Absolutely this is about abortion and pro-choice. It was suggested that the fetus does not meet the definition of a baby until at least age 1.

                                                                  #11.7 - Thu Feb 2, 2012 9:45 AM EST
                                                                  canary-in-the-coal-mine

                                                                  some keep asking you to define the point of VIABILITY. What is the point where the fetus becomes capable of living outside the womb with no other input than food drink and shelter?

                                                                  Is that newly born baby reliant upon the mother for breathing ? Food? Shelter? Remember we are talking about natal supplied items - not post natal delivered items. Medically, your statements hold water like a sieve.

                                                                    #11.8 - Fri Feb 10, 2012 12:31 AM EST
                                                                    Socrates1

                                                                    Frankly, food, drink, and shelter are what the mother provides prior to birth.

                                                                      #11.9 - Fri Feb 10, 2012 10:19 PM EST
                                                                      Reply
                                                                      caballojoe

                                                                      I like your article, Socrates. It makes sense, except that I agree with Andrew that the science is already pretty well understood. Case law decided since Roe v. Wade abandoned the segmentation of pregnancy into trimesters, and focuses solely on the issue of viability. That, to me, seems a well-reasoned approach. Andrew's points go to the humaneness of the timing of abortion, which is certainly relevant, if we are to be kind to the fetus, but I'm not sure that it has been extant in any Court decisions since Roe v. Wade. However, given the data cited by Andrew that viability actually coincides pretty nicely with the development of the central nervous system and precedes upper brain function, it may not be necessary to refine the science further in order to confirm the current state of the law as a sound basis for regulation. It is only once you introduce religious concepts that things begin to fall apart.

                                                                      • 1 vote
                                                                      Reply#12 - Tue Jan 31, 2012 12:39 PM EST
                                                                      Socrates1

                                                                      I'm going to have to disagree on a conclusion or two.

                                                                      As I mention in a previous comment, it sounds like "personhood" might actually begin at age 1.

                                                                        #12.1 - Tue Jan 31, 2012 10:16 PM EST
                                                                        Reply
                                                                        not over it

                                                                        On the premise of your article, I agree. Everyone agrees that babies are protected.

                                                                        Although, there is only one issue that matters about abortion. That issue is does a woman have rights over her own body or not. That is it. A man has unequivocal rights over what he does with his body. A woman should have that same right. The entire issue should be between a woman and her doctor, nobody else.

                                                                        I have no idea why so many people think they should have an opinion of a medical condition of a woman they have never met. Right now there is a woman somewhere, in a doctors office, that I do not know, will never know, that is faced with this decision. Why in the hell would I think that I get to have an opinion on what is best for her or her body? The answer is, I don't. It's none of my business.

                                                                        • 9 votes
                                                                        Reply#13 - Tue Jan 31, 2012 12:49 PM EST
                                                                        Socrates1

                                                                        not over it...Sorry, but as I suggest in my article, I disagree that the ONLY issue that matters is whether a woman has rights over her own body. In fact, the entire issue, assuming that, as you agree, babies should be protected, is when the status of baby begins.

                                                                          #13.1 - Tue Jan 31, 2012 10:18 PM EST
                                                                          Reply
                                                                          Lisafrequency

                                                                          I think men need to take more responsibility for their role in pregnancies after all we do know that it could not happen with out men's help in the process.

                                                                          I know there are women who do get pregnant although using birth control and many get pregnant because they have not used anything at all. I also think it would be wise for women to learn enough about their bodies to become aware of how it feels to be ovulating. Their are home test for it. I believe if more women started trying to learn about it they could prevent more unwanted pregnancies and also the test kits for ovulation might go down because of demand in the market.,

                                                                          • 5 votes
                                                                          Reply#14 - Tue Jan 31, 2012 12:53 PM EST
                                                                          Baron von Steuben

                                                                          I don't agree. It's not in our body. It's in your body, you decide what to do with the thing. It's your problem now.

                                                                          • 1 vote
                                                                          #14.1 - Tue Jan 31, 2012 3:55 PM EST
                                                                          fernando-2143457

                                                                          I make women who I have sex with jump up and down afterwards. Condom or not I am not taking any chances. Every month or so I also give them the option to fall down the stairs or get punched in the stomach, just to be sure.

                                                                            #14.2 - Tue Jan 31, 2012 3:57 PM EST
                                                                            kj031056-1

                                                                            Every month or so I also give them the option to fall down the stairs or get punched in the stomach, just to be sure.

                                                                            OR YOU could wrap your pecker twice.....that seems a little less drastic than your other options....

                                                                            • 1 vote
                                                                            #14.3 - Tue Jan 31, 2012 10:30 PM EST
                                                                            fernando-2143457

                                                                            Wrapping it twice raises the risk of the condom breaking, if you wanna raise your chances of getting someone pregnant that's the way to go.

                                                                              #14.4 - Wed Feb 1, 2012 3:38 PM EST
                                                                              kj031056-1

                                                                              Well, you could try folding it in half and point the spitting end out......

                                                                              The point is, there are things you, as the male, could do to help your partner remain non-pregnant......slick it up with MORE spermicidal jelly before you put the condom on, check with your doctor about the male pill to see if it's available.....hell just pulling out probably helps a little......that's probably much easier than hitting her in the stomach or making her jump up and down......besides you don't know if the jumping sucks your little swimmers up into the cervix.....

                                                                              • 1 vote
                                                                              #14.5 - Wed Feb 1, 2012 4:35 PM EST
                                                                              fernando-2143457

                                                                              Jumping up and down serves two purposes, one of them involves the boobs bouncing when she is jumping, the other is helping with the not getting pregnant thing.

                                                                                #14.6 - Wed Feb 1, 2012 5:10 PM EST
                                                                                Reply
                                                                                Lisafrequency

                                                                                whoa boys...

                                                                                  Reply#15 - Tue Jan 31, 2012 6:49 PM EST
                                                                                  Baron von Steuben

                                                                                  Um, I wouldn't go as far as fernando. (between you and me, I think he might be a little off in the head)

                                                                                  • 1 vote
                                                                                  #15.1 - Tue Jan 31, 2012 8:37 PM EST
                                                                                  Lisafrequency

                                                                                  I don't agree. It's not in our body.

                                                                                  Maybe women need to stop having sex with men who take no responsibility for their actions..

                                                                                  • 1 vote
                                                                                  #15.2 - Wed Feb 1, 2012 6:11 AM EST
                                                                                  nica1829

                                                                                  women need to stop having sex with men who take no responsibility for their actions..

                                                                                  As if those women are the only women that have unintended, unwanted pregnancies that are terminated.

                                                                                  • 1 vote
                                                                                  #15.3 - Wed Feb 1, 2012 7:02 AM EST
                                                                                  Baron von Steuben

                                                                                  Maybe women need to accept that they are the ones who are solely responsible for choosing whether to keep the child or not. It isn't our responsibility, it isn't our body.

                                                                                    #15.4 - Wed Feb 1, 2012 9:13 AM EST
                                                                                    canary-in-the-coal-mine

                                                                                    some women would just rather it be "off with the little head" (bobbit, anyone??)

                                                                                    LOOK AT WHAT YOU DID TO ME!!!

                                                                                      #15.5 - Thu Feb 9, 2012 11:54 PM EST
                                                                                      Reply
                                                                                      Sparrow-2863685

                                                                                      It seems to me that there would be an easy way to determine if and when a fetus has a chance of surviving outside of the uterus. Assuming that all are in agreement that first trimester should be a no brainer, after the second trimester has begun, inducing labor would certainly be the way to go, as opposed to removing the fetus with instruments and (sorry for the graphic description, but it's the only way to explain it) literally tearing it apart. If the fetus is viable, it will live, if not, it will die.

                                                                                      As far as the steps taken to sustain its life, that's where the "pro-life" people could put their money where their mouths are. If they are pro-life and believe that "baby" should have the opportunity, they can be responsible for the costs of preemie care, beyond oxygen and non-invasive procedures.

                                                                                      Good article Socrates, makes for a thought provoking discussion.

                                                                                        Reply#16 - Wed Feb 1, 2012 6:23 AM EST
                                                                                        Socrates1

                                                                                        Thank you.

                                                                                        I'm not so sure about the firmness of the position of requiring those who see something as murder, becoming automatically responsible for the victim because they saved their life, although I believe there is a Chinese feeling that this should be so.

                                                                                        Example, if I save a victim of a car accident, do I become responsible for any and all costs incurred by the victim as a result of surviving?

                                                                                        My point..once again...is that if all agree once one recognizes an entity as being alive, is not protection of their person mandated?...and thus should we not determine...scientifically where that point is?

                                                                                          #16.1 - Thu Feb 2, 2012 12:48 AM EST
                                                                                          Reply
                                                                                          Zero-

                                                                                          with respect to this again i say its for women to decide weather they want to have the child or not.

                                                                                          men have no right to decide.

                                                                                            Reply#17 - Fri Feb 3, 2012 9:59 AM EST
                                                                                            Socrates1

                                                                                            Meaning what?

                                                                                            Did you read the article?

                                                                                            • 1 vote
                                                                                            #17.1 - Fri Feb 3, 2012 11:35 AM EST
                                                                                            Zero-

                                                                                            meaning that even this artical is jacked up if it written by a guy

                                                                                            thus it becomes in valid

                                                                                            • 1 vote
                                                                                            #17.2 - Fri Feb 3, 2012 12:24 PM EST
                                                                                            Socrates1

                                                                                            How so?

                                                                                            When Cindy Sheehan stalked President Bush I don't remember that many people suggesting that she had no right to protest based on the fact that it wasn't her body.

                                                                                              #17.3 - Fri Feb 3, 2012 1:10 PM EST
                                                                                              Baron von Steuben

                                                                                              The opinions of men are not invalid on this subject. Though the final decision lies with the woman, everyone has the right to an opinion and many opinions from men and women alike are worthy of consideration. Don't dismiss half the population simply because they aren't the ones who make the choice. They still have to live with the decision made by another, that alone warrants consideration.

                                                                                              • 2 votes
                                                                                              #17.4 - Fri Feb 3, 2012 1:16 PM EST
                                                                                              Reply
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