MUSLIM CRUSADES Started Four Centuries Before the Western Crusades « FactReal

thank you for the seed.

it seems to me we could all get along, but that would take accepting certain Western Values

To which someone from the East could justifiably respond that we would need to accept certain Eastern values.

Christianity is not inherently superior to Islam and Islam is not inherently superior to Christianity.

Me, personally, I'd get rid of all religions but that's not my call.

As soon as Christianity became legal in the Roman Empire by imperial edict (315), more and more pagan temples were destroyed by Christian mob. Pagan priests were killed.
Between 315 and 6th century thousands of pagan believers were slain.
Examples of destroyed Temples: the Sanctuary of Aesculap in Aegaea, the Temple of Aphrodite in Golgatha, Aphaka in Lebanon, the Heliopolis.
Christian priests such as Mark of Arethusa or Cyrill of Heliopolis were famous as "temple destroyer." [DA468]
Pagan services became punishable by death in 356. [DA468]
Christian Emperor Theodosius (408-450) even had children executed, because they had been playing with remains of pagan statues. [DA469]
According to Christian chroniclers he "followed meticulously all Christian teachings..."
http://articles.exchristian.net/2002/10/how-many-people-have-been-killed-by.php

this was all before the founding of the muslim religion.

The Sharia Paranoia Industry is very lucrative

http://ikhwanophobia.com/2011/08/the-sharia-paranoia-industry-is-very-lucrative/

REPORT: $42 Million From Seven Foundations Helped Fuel The Rise Of Islamophobia In America
http://thinkprogress.org/politics/2011/08/26/304306/islamophobia-network/

Christianity is not inherently superior to Islam and Islam is not inherently superior to Christianity.

Perhaps, but those followers who have given institutional Christianity its black eyes down through the centuries were acting on their own impulses, not on what Jesus taught. By any moral standard you care to name, Jesus himself was infinitely superior to Mohammed, who taught his followers through his own personal example that mass murder, pillage, rape, slavery, extortion, and pedophilia are OK.

Mohammed, who taught his followers through his own personal example that mass murder, pillage, rape, slavery, extortion, and pedophilia are OK.

As opposed to the numerous "followers of Christ" who did the same thing?

And are you equating Jesus with Mohammed? Even Islam recognized that Mohammed was not God, unlike Christianity, which conflates the human being known as Jesus of Nazareth with God himself. It's not really an apples to apples comparison. But why should it be?

Neither Islam or Christianity are inherently superior to any of the ancient polytheistic religions (or even some of the current polytheistic religions such as Hinduism). So Christians need to get off their high horses.

Of course the most interesting is how many defend Islam, and denigrate Christianity, while benefiting from Christianity and watching the fruits of Islam.

I don't defend Islam. I indict all religions equally. They are all intellectually flawed, morally suspect and scientifically backward.

while benefiting from Christianity

I benefit from those around me not caring what each other's religion is. In my office alone, I interact daily with Muslims, Hindus, Jews, Christians and, I would have to assume from statistics alone, a few atheists.

douglasq, you will please note that I compared Jesus and Mohammed themselves, not their followers.

NV got kind of wonky before I could clarify: followers of Jesus who perform such despicable acts directly contravene what Jesus taught and the way in which he lived; followers of Mohammed who do those things are merely following the example he himself set.

The grass withers, the flower fades; but the word of our God will stand for ever. [Isaiah 40 verse 8]

The Bible says the same thing in 1 Peter 1 verses 24 and 25. And in Psalm 19:7 the Bible says:

The law of the Lord is perfect.

Since the laws of the Bible are perfect, they should never change.

And then there is this. In Matthew 5 verse 20 Jesus says:

For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven. - Matthew 5:20

According to Jesus , we must follow the laws of the Bible.

http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/video2.htm

Jesus , a Jew , believed in Jewish law. He followed Jewish law and tradition. That would mean killing for various reasons. He did not start a new religion.

Jesus strongly approves of the law and the prophets. He hasn't the slightest objection to the cruelties of the Old Testament. Matthew 5:17

Abandon your wife and children for Jesus and he'll give your a big reward. Jesus asks that his followers abandon their children to follow him. To leave your child is abuse, it's called neglect, pure and simple. Matthew 19:29

Jesus criticizes the Jews for not killing their disobedient children according to Old Testament law. Mark 7:9

Luke 12:47 Jesus okays beating slaves.

Peter Kills Two People
Acts 5:1-11 NLT

"Don't imagine that I came to bring peace on earth! No, rather a sword lf you love your father, mother, sister, brother, more than me, you are not worthy of being mine. "The real beauty of this verse is that Jesus demands people truly love him more then they love their own family. I ask you how can we love someone that we can not see or interact with? Love is an emotion pertaining to physical existence not to faithful ideologies, yet God threatens you with Death just because your love for your mother maybe stronger than your love for him. Matthew 10:34

Matthew 15:4-7 (New International Version)

4For God said, 'Honor your father and mother'[a] and 'Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death.'[b] 5But you say that if a man says to his father or mother, 'Whatever help you might otherwise have received from me is a gift devoted to God,' 6he is not to 'honor his father[c]' with it. Thus you nullify the word of God for the sake of your tradition. 7You hypocrites! Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you:

Murder in the Bible
http://www.evilbible.com/Murder.htm

that all religions advocate killing and detestable acts in the name of said mythical belief.

and those excusing Jesus fail to realize he too , being a Jew and observing Jewish law of the OT , would have believed it would have been fine for such killing and detestable acts as well.

what is read in the NT is not a biography of Jesus as he really would have believed and existed . It is an amalgamation of various persons both real and myth by various writers through history who never knew the man. Inserting their own agenda

"Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill" (Matthew 5:17).

if one believes someone named Jesus said that above ? all the 'laws' of Judaism would still stand for him and those who followed him ... remember , Jesus didn't start a new religion. Paul did. The first christians were still Jewish and observed Jewish tradition. ( including to not preach to gentiles as Jesus taught in Matthew )

example ...

Death to Followers of Other Religions

Whoever sacrifices to any god, except the Lord alone, shall be doomed. (Exodus 22:19 NAB)

Kill Nonbelievers

They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)

Kill the Entire Town if One Person Worships Another God

Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. "The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him." (Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT)

Kill Women Who Are Not Virgins On Their Wedding Night

But if this charge is true (that she wasn't a virgin on her wedding night), and evidence of the girls virginity is not found, they shall bring the girl to the entrance of her fathers house and there her townsman shall stone her to death, because she committed a crime against Israel by her unchasteness in her father's house. Thus shall you purge the evil from your midst. (Deuteronomy 22:20-21 NAB)

http://www.evilbible.com/Murder.htm

to say Jesus wouldn't have believed the above is to not understand a factual Jesus and his Jewish beliefs or the first century.

But if this charge is true (that she wasn't a virgin on her wedding night), and evidence of the girls virginity is not found, they shall bring the girl to the entrance of her fathers house and there her townsman shall stone her to death

I do not dispute this is in the bible. However, how do you explain the lack of evidence, going back over a thousand years or more, of Jews or Christians acting on this verse ?

to say Jesus wouldn't have believed the above is to not understand a factual Jesus

What about that "let ye without sin cast the first stone" thing ?

this seems to me (a pagan) as being in opposition to stoning.

Even at the time of Mohammad, Jews were no longer stoning humans to death. Why not ?

This is recorded in the hadiths. It was the claim of Mohammad, that Jews had rejected the word of g*d, for not continuing the practice?

Dating from the birth of Islam, the contemporary Jewish thought, was this was not the word of "GOD" moral reason proved that as fact. it was readily apparent to all people living at that time.

How can I make this claim you might ask ? It helps if you know your hadiths.

after reading Bukhari (second only to the holy Qur'an) it's clear that the Jews who were living on the Arab Peninsula, had at this time discontinued that particular practice.

Narrated 'Abdullah bin Umar:

The Jews brought to the Prophet a man and a woman from among them who had committed illegal sexual intercourse. The Prophet said to them, "How do you usually punish the one amongst you who has committed illegal sexual intercourse?" They replied, "We blacken their faces with coal and beat them," He said, "Don't you find the order of Ar-Rajm (i.e. stoning to death) in the Torah?" They replied, "We do not find anything in it." 'Abdullah bin Salam (after hearing this conversation) said to them. "You have told a lie! Bring here the Torah and recite it if you are truthful." (So the Jews brought the Torah). And the religious teacher who was teaching it to them, put his hand over the Verse of Ar-Rajm and started reading what was written above and below the place hidden with his hand, but he did not read the Verse of Ar-Rajm. 'Abdullah bin Salam removed his (i.e. the teacher's) hand from the Verse of Ar-Rajm and said, "What is this?" So when the Jews saw that Verse, they said, "This is the Verse of Ar-Rajm." So the Prophet ordered the two adulterers to be stoned to death, and they were stoned to death near the place where biers used to be placed near the Mosque. I saw her companion (i.e. the adulterer) bowing over her so as to protect her from the stones.

Bukhari (6:60:79)

Why does the adulterer, have more compassion for his fellow human, than the 'prophet' of islam ?

the Muslims living side by side with the Jewish tribes had this to say.

The Jews Alter and Change the Law, Such As Stoning the Adulterer

[يُحَرِّفُونَ الْكَلِمَ مِن بَعْدِ مَوَضِعِهِ]

(They change the words from their places:) by altering their meanings and knowingly distorting them after they comprehended them,

[يَقُولُونَ إِنْ أُوتِيتُمْ هَـذَا فَخُذُوهُ وَإِن لَّمْ تُؤْتَوْهُ فَاحْذَرُواْ]

(they say, "If you are given this, take it, but if you are not given this, then beware!") It was reported that this part of the Ayah was revealed about some Jews who committed murder and who said to each other, "Let us ask Muhammad to judge between us, and if he decides that we pay the Diyah, accept his judgement. If he decides on capital punishment, do not accept his judgement.'' The correct opinion is that this Ayah was revealed about the two Jews who committed adultery. The Jews changed the law they had in their Book from Allah on the matter of punishment for adultery, from stoning to death, to a hundred flogs and making the offenders ride a donkey facing the back of the donkey.

here we have only one, of the new Jewish interpretation or understanding of the verse, marginally better.

When this incident of adultery occurred after the Hijrah, they said to each other, "Let us go to Muhammad and seek his judgement. If he gives a ruling of flogging, then implement his decision and make it a proof for you with Allah. This way, one of Allah's Prophets will have upheld this ruling amongst you. But if he decides that the punishment should be stoning to death, then do not accept his decision.'' There are several Hadiths mentioning this story. Malik reported that Nafi` said that `Abdullah bin `Umar said, "The Jews came to Allah's Messenger and mentioned that a man and a woman from them committed adultery. Allah's Messenger said to them,

«مَا تَجِدُونَ فِي التَّوْرَاةِ فِي شَأْنِ الرَّجْمِ؟»

(What do find of the ruling about stoning in the Tawrah) They said, `We only find that they should be exposed and flogged.' `Abdullah bin Salam said, `You lie. The Tawrah mentions stoning, so bring the Tawrah.' They brought the Tawrah and opened it but one of them hid the verse about stoning with his hand and recited what is before and after that verse. `Abdullah bin Salam said to him, `Remove your hand,' and he removed it, thus uncovering the verse about stoning. So they said, He (`Abdullah bin Salam) has said the truth, O Muhammad! It is the verse about stoning.' The Messenger of Allah decided that the adulterers be stoned to death and his command was carried out. I saw that man shading the woman from the stones with his body.'' Al-Bukhari and Muslim also collected this Hadith and this is the wording collected by Al-Bukhari.In another narration by Al-Bukhari, the Prophet said to the Jews,

«مَا تَصْنَعُون بِهِمَا؟»

(What would you do in this case) They said, "We would humiliate and expose them.''

and here, we see no violence involved. The infidelity is made know, and they are made to feel shame.This is in the seventh century, very "progressive" idea, if you were to ask me.

http://www.qtafsir.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=776&Itemid=60

1400 odd years ago, the truth was apparent, as it should be in this day and age.

as they say the devils, in the details

Why had Jews discontinued that practice ?

(ps)

love your source "evil bible.com" it shows you are a neutral in the debate, and harbor no bigoted prejudices, or preconceived notions. (LOL)

you always have so much info

Thank you.

Here is a pagan Roman report on Christianity,you might find it interesting.

The collection known as Letters, section 10:96, captures a moment in time when imperial Rome is coming to grips with a new phenomenon.

the report sent back, is an extraordinary interchange, caught forever, in a historical lens.

describing early Christianity (that he personally thought poorly of, to say the least)

http://www9.georgetown.edu/faculty/jod/texts/pliny.html

very similar, with modern teachings, except for women teachers, or religious figures were more prevalent in the ancient world than today.

kpr37

Interesting you use John and casting the first stone story... John , like the other Anonymous Gospel writers who never knew Jesus.

not to forget the story was a later addition .John 7:53-8:11 does not exist in the earliest, most reliable codices of John--nor any of the fragments P75 and P66.

In other words as most of the NT ... made up. But one would know that if they really knew the bible.

these are examples of later additions ...

John 8:11 Neither do I condemn you. Go and sin no more.
John 8:1-11 (NRSV)
John 5:4
Luke 24:12
Luke 24:51
Luke 22:44
Luke 22:20
Mark 16:17
Mark 16:18

The internal evidence against the authenticity of the Fourth Gospel is conclusive. The Apostle John did not write it. John, the apostle, was a Jew; the author of the Fourth Gospel was not a Jew. John was born at Bethsaida; the author of the Fourth Gospel did not know where Bethsaida was located. John was an uneducated fisherman; the author of this Gospel was an accomplished scholar. Some of the most important events in the life of Jesus, the Synoptics declare, were witnessed by John; the author of this knows nothing of these events. The Apostle John witnessed the crucifixion; the author of this Gospel did not. The Apostles, including John, believed Jesus to be a man; the author of the Fourth Gospel believed him to be a god.

Regarding the authorship of the Fourth Gospel, Dr. Davidson says: "The Johannine authorship has receded before the tide of modern criticism, and though this tide is arbitrary at times, it is here irresistible" (Canon of the Bible, p. 127).

love your source "evil bible.com" it shows you are a neutral in the debate, and harbor no bigoted prejudices, or preconceived notions.

you may not like the source but it does point out FACT.

that you can not deny.

Even at the time of Mohammad, Jews were no longer stoning humans to death. Why not ?

Extremist Jews spit on "immodest" girl
http://eideard.com/2011/12/25/orthodox-jews-in-israel-spit-on-immodest-8-year-old-girl/

Haredim Stone Girl With Cinder Block Because Of "Immodest" Dress
http://failedmessiah.typepad.com/failed_messiahcom/2009/09/haredim-stone-girl-with-cinder-block-because-of-immodest-dress-345.html

Conservative Jews Stoned By Orthodox Youth After Shul
http://failedmessiah.typepad.com/failed_messiahcom/2011/04/conservative-jews-stoned-by-orthodox-youth-after-shul-123.html

Victim of Ultra Orthodox Jewish stoning says she
pleaded for her life, but 50 people did nothing.
http://yourjewishnews.com/15632.aspx

Jew Settlers Stoning Palestine Children walking to school
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V1ovdA1VZ-c

I don't hate the myth of christianity or any religious myth. But myths need to be kept in their proper place ... away from governments .

and people need to stop being so ignorant about the myths they believe. All religions are based on older myths.

my remarks address the errors brought up by other posters.

did you or will you remark that their remarks are off topic ? of course you won't. hypocrisy at work right !?

Pliny the Younger (62-113), Emperor Trajan (53? 117), Lucian (120 - after CE 180) all mention Christians to various degrees. No question. However, they never knew the historical Jesus if such existed and are not eye-witnesses .

Around 112 CE, Pliny the Younger wrote letters to the emperor Trajan reporting on the trials of Christians that he conducted as a provincial governor. These Christians were tried, not for their religious beliefs, but because Pliny had forbidden political associations, which evidentially he considered them doing. Through torture of two deaconesses, he discovered "nothing else but depraved, excessive superstition". All the information reported by Pliny was second hand, gleamed from Christians and never once does he mention a Jesus Christ (he does mention that they call their god, "Christ"). Pliny can not be used to prove anything more than the existence of Christians in the 2nd century CE.

The other historian that I was going to mention (and one often used by Christians to "Prove" Jesus) was Suetonius. In his "Twelve Caesars" written around the same time as Pliny was corresponding with Trajan, Suetonius (in the biography of Claudius) wrote, "As the Jews were making constant disturbances at the instigation of one Chrestus, he expelled them from Rome." What is humorous here is the attempt of those desperate to find any evidence for Jesus that they attempt to equate "Chrestus", a common Greek name, used by slaves and freemen, meaning"The Good" with Christ. This name was common enough that it can be seen on numerous Latin inscriptions, many dating long before the 1st century CE. What Suetonius was reporting here was that the Jews were expelled from Rome because of a Jew by the name of Chrestus agitating riots in Rome of the 5th decade of the 1st century CE. He is not referring to a criminal executed in Palestine in the 3rd decade of that century and quite possibly had no knowledge of that individual at all!
It would seem that our "old buddy" did a little "cut and paste" to Suetonius also. In Suetonius' Life of Nero (part of Twelve Caesars), Suetonius supposedly describes Nero's persecution of the Christians – "Punishments were also inflicted on the Christians, a sect professing a new and mischievous religious belief…" However, at this time there were no gospels written, no true organization of the various small groups of believers, no common name for them. Paul makes not a single reference to Christians in any of his letters. Most believers at that time identified themselves as saints, brethren or various other names, but no one called themselves Christians. Romans usually lumped them with other groups and sects, calling them Atheists, God Fearers and "Affecting Jewish Ways", but again it is doubtful they even knew the term, Christ much less Christian.

fyi ....... Josephus, Tacitus, Pliny the Younger and Suetonius manure has been debunked more times than I can count.

(Pliny to Trajan, Letters 10.96-97)
Notice that no Jesus was mentioned, only a Christ which might or might not be Jesus. All this proves is that in the 2nd century CE, there was a group that identified themselves as Christians, something that we already knew. It no more proves there was a Jesus than the existence of Mithrians proves there was a Mithra.

all I've done was posted FACT. sad that it disturbs you. Facts are not hateful ... they just are fact.

Provide the truth regarding the Crusades

and yet you didn't . What you gave was only biased opinion on the subject. Christianity killing others began long before the birth of Islam.

and isn't it you who are attempting to maintain the myth propogated by many Muslims?

see answer above ... the only one shoving myth as fact has been you and some of your posters .... I proved otherwise and now your upset.

An inspiring and binding narrative is vital for the success of any nation.

that narrative doesn't need to be mythical religion ! actually having such would hurt in the long run as it is doing to the US and the Mid east. why ? because society changes , people become educated and evolve and either religious myth evolves to keep up or it fades away but not before becoming violent in either case.

why not base an uplifting narrative of fact ? Like fighting for one's freedom from an oppressive ruler such as king George ?

In addition, regardless of what you posted, I don't go out of my way to prove people wrong, just because I can. If Joe Blow wants to think his Dad is the best thing since sliced bread, and that belief has positive consequences, why should I go out of my way to prove any differently.

one is entitled to their own opinion but not their own facts. What I have posted is fact. You want to seed a post it seems but not willing to accept fact different from your opinion. You would be happy if all agreed ? even if not factual ? that is what's wrong with this and other countries. Too many settle for Bull crap and don't think. Especially in matters of religious myth.

fyi ...

I don't hate any religious myth.

fyi I was raised Catholic 25 years , wanted to even become a nun , studied theology privately and have friends who are biblical translators , scholars as well as one who is an archeologist and had worked in Israel. My Gran was a Ukrainian Jew who married a Catholic . Guess what that makes me ? Jewish.

I am agnostic and don't believe in any religious myth . Man made God in his image for various reason.

religious myth ? I think it shows people are still gullible .