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SOCRATES1

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Do Pro-Choice Advocates Really Want To Discuss Capital Punishment?

Fri Jan 20, 2012 1:35 AM EST
politics, christian, christianity, baby, rights, society, ethics, philosophy, pro-life, execution, morality, killer, kill, capital-punishment, error, logic, roe-v-wade, fetus, abortion-pro-choice
By Socrates1
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I had originally considered titling this article “Discussing the Fallacious Linkage of Abortion and Capital Punishment” with my first sentence suggesting we not discuss it, and say we did.  Aside from the clumsiness of the original title, I thought it best to address this argument once and for all.  There is no linkage.  Although there may be good arguments on all sides of both issues, this particular one is so ridiculous that I feel I am doing those who employ it a service by suggesting they cease and desist.  I’m going to mention here that, in most cases, I am against capital punishment and that my primary reason for taking that position is the possibility of error in executing the wrong person for a crime he did not commit.  There are other valid arguments, regardless of whether one agrees, such as the suggestion that state sanctioned murder is still murder.  On the other hand, I am “pro-choice” in the same limited way I am “for” capital punishment in that I might be convinced to support a sentence of death for a particular individual under particular circumstances.   I state these positions to suggest that this is not an attempt to simply dismiss an argument I cannot rebut on the grounds that this particular argument not only cannot be used against me, but I can use it against those who employ it.

In the first place, anyone who employs the argument is agreeing that both issues involve the death of an individual and thus they do real damage to the notion that the abortion procedure does not. As this is a foundational premise for many, I simply don’t see the benefit in putting it into play.  I understand that advocates of the position feel they are pointing out an obvious fact, which is that the two positions are in conflict and thus hypocritical, but the risk of damage to their own position seems to me to far outweigh any perceived benefit.  As I alluded to earlier, if one puts all his eggs in this basket, only to find that his discussion partner opposes both, whether or not he realizes it, the damage to his credibility has been severe.  On this basis alone, I would suggest ending this fallacious comparison.

Let’s face it, there are many who will continue to pull this worthless argument out whenever the opportunity arises, regardless of what I suggested above, and thus I will assume, for now, that a comparison of space travel to apples somehow is relevant. The loss in stature of the “pro-choice” person is already evident in the fact that we are now speaking of two living and breathing persons.  In fact, this concession on the part of the pro-choice person might suggest that it is the pro-life person who should lie in ambush eagerly awaiting this very discussion.  From a legal and moral point of view there can be no firmer ground than suggesting that the innocent should not be subject to the same negatives as the guilty.  In the previous sentence I willfully omit the word “consequences”, as that would suggest a relationship to some specific action on the part of the innocent. 

In conclusion, I fail to see the value of this comparison, on any level, to those who choose to introduce it.  In the first place, if their foundational premise is in error, then they lose before they even get started.  In the second place, the logic comparing the two is flawed and they lose on the merits of an argument they never should have introduced.  Thank you.

 

 

 

Published concurrently under the title..."Abortion and Capital Punishment-Are The Two Issues Even Similar?"

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  • Public Discussion (23)
Socrates1

I'm sorry, and no offense to the last person who employed it, but this argument verges on the bizarre.

  • 2 votes
Reply#1 - Fri Jan 20, 2012 1:36 AM EST
bluearcher

Why no comment on the opposite position of being anti-choice and pro capital punishment?

If men could get pregnant the legality of and access to abortion would never be in question.

Pro-life? Then please show me your organ donation authorization on your DL, your Red Cross blood donation history, your record of protesting against animal experimentation and cruelty and evidence of protesting the death penalty.

The "rights" of the parasite never trump those of the host. Pregnancy is not a symbiotic relationship.

  • 12 votes
#1.1 - Fri Jan 20, 2012 3:41 AM EST
Z1P2

If men could get pregnant the legality of and access to abortion would never be in question.

Damn straight.

  • 9 votes
#1.2 - Fri Jan 20, 2012 3:47 AM EST
Reply
Uthaclena

Actually, many years ago I modified my Liberal total opposition to capital punishment because of my views on abortion rights.

If you do not use the term "murder" in both of these arguments and substitute "killing," it is obvious that killing is something that we humans have always done for a variety of reasons, both good and bad. Therefore, the question is really when is it appropriate and allowable to kill.

  • 5 votes
Reply#2 - Fri Jan 20, 2012 2:09 AM EST
Steve Watts

I'd say it depends on why someone is pro-choice. Not all pro-choice advocates fall under the precise same banner of reasoning. In my experience, many pro-choice advocates fall on that side of the debate because they are in favor of small government on social issues. That's why liberals are more likely to favor gay marriage or drug legalization. When it comes to the freedom of private citizens, they want the government to be hands-off.

When looked at through that lens, being pro-choice but against capital punishment makes perfect sense. They don't want the government powerful enough to dictate our doctor's visits, and they don't want the government powerful enough to take human lives in a non-defensive manner.

This is as upposed to the neo-con philosophy, in which the government has the ability -- nay, duty -- to both make your moral decisions for you and dole out killings itself.

  • 12 votes
Reply#3 - Fri Jan 20, 2012 2:53 AM EST
Z1P2

I'm pro-choice but anti-abortion, meaning that while I think the right to abort should be maintained, I would never advise anyone to get an abortion. I am also pro-capital punishment and I think we need to expand capital punishment to include pedophiles.

  • 5 votes
Reply#4 - Fri Jan 20, 2012 3:25 AM EST
northern girl

I am with you 100% on your above comment Z1P2! Even though abortion isnt a choice I would make right now, I dont feel I should have a say in what others choose to do. I am not walking in their shoes. If I were, my choice/view may change. However, I do believe that there are some crimes so heinous, that the person committing them shouldnt be allowed to live. Child molestation is one of those crimes.

  • 1 vote
#4.1 - Fri Jan 20, 2012 9:14 AM EST
Reply
Andrew-1162039

In the first place, anyone who employs the argument is agreeing that both issues involve the death of an individual and thus they do real damage to the notion that the abortion procedure does not.

This is ridiculous. A fetus is not sentient, not a person, while even the most awful criminal is. I don't concede this point by making the obvious analysis that the internal logic of the pro-life/pro-capital punishment is flawed either way. The criminal is a person, there is simply no argument against this. Amending a thou shalt not kill stance to thou shalt not kill people unless they meet certain criteria is the slipperiest of slopes which is what makes the comparison argument valid. They believe in killing in certain conditions, just when they think it's warranted.

To put it another way, pointing out that the internal logic of a fictional story, say Superman, is inconsistent, not being able to lift x amount in one panel while he's lifted three times that much three pages earlier is not the same as conceding that Superman is a real person in the first place, just that Superman as presented by the author is inconsistent.

  • 5 votes
Reply#5 - Fri Jan 20, 2012 8:27 AM EST
Socrates1

Thank you, but I already attempted to address this point and suggested that in so doing one is still opening up the argument to the comparison.

    #5.1 - Fri Jan 20, 2012 3:04 PM EST
    Reply
    thisbusymonster

    The two positions are not about the same issue at all, so I don't know why they get linked.

    Capital punishment is a mistake. There have been too many obvious cases where an innocent man like Cameron Todd Willingham, for example, is sent to the death chambers because public sentiment, gubernatorial stubbornness, or simple hatefulness is incapable of prioritizing the truth over the need for a symbolic punishment.

    The death penalty always has been just the Revenge Penalty. It has never been about justice. Death Penalty cases are highly emotionally charged. The system is presented with a horrific crime. In order to assure the public that horrific crimes do not go unpunished, someone is found to punish (right or wrong). The system inexorably moves towards murdering that person, and then even if the person is innocent (as is indisputably the case in Cameron Todd Willingham's official murder) there is no penalty for the executioners, the jury, the judge, the prosecutor, or the governor for the mistake. No incentive exists to get it right.

    I used to say I would be all for the death penalty only on the condition that all of the people involved in sending a man to his death were ALSO on the hook if they made a mistake. But since the last few years have taught me that people in power can always evade responsibility, I've since changed my mind, and it seems that most of this country is waking up to the same harsh reality. The death penalty is NOT justice. It is revenge, and it is bread and circuses for a savage culture that we are rapidly evolving away from.

    As for abortion it should be safe, legal, and rare. I can't emphasize enough that the same people telling me that abortion is murder also think contraception is evil -- and I think they are @!$%#ing hypocrites. The pro-"life" movement is about enslaving women, and that is just too obvious anymore.

      Reply#6 - Fri Jan 20, 2012 9:35 AM EST
      Socrates1

      As I stated, I'm not big on capital punishment either, on the other hand, I haven't done any surveys, but I know plenty of people who are "pro-contraception" and "anti-abortion".

        #6.1 - Fri Jan 20, 2012 3:06 PM EST
        Reply
        Better Careful

        I hold my society, nation, and government to higher standards than I might hold an individual. Our government and society can act deliberately and rationally. The individual is under stresses and strains that do not apply to a society or government.

        A government and society does not execute or kill but deliberately. There is an opportunity for the society and government to rise to a moral level higher than a single individual might be capable of. A moral and just society ought not kill simply to sate the blood-lust and revenge of certain of its members. It especially ought not kill as a matter of law, as a requirement, knowing that justice is not perfect and that innocent people will die to sate the blood-lust and revenge of certain individuals.

        As onerous as abortion is, there is no requirement that abortion must be done. There is merely an acknowledgement that the society and government ought not prevent a woman from choosing an abortion for herself. The society and government is staying out of this matter. That is about the correct response - staying out of this private matter. Were there a social or government mandate that women must get abortions, that would change everything.

        • 1 vote
        Reply#7 - Fri Jan 20, 2012 9:45 AM EST
        Socrates1

        The problem with the "private matter" argument in that for those who believe the fetus is an individual the decision is not "private". anymore than taking a one year old baby and dropping him off a bridge is.

          #7.1 - Fri Jan 20, 2012 3:08 PM EST
          Better Careful

          A fetus is not a one year-old baby. Evolutionarily, a fetus more resembles a lizard or a bird than a human being. Potential is not fact, in fact.

          The pro-death response for state-sponsored murder in our justice system (capital punishment) is an emotional response. It is neither rational nor moral.

          The anti-choice response is also emotional. It is not rational, even if it might be moral for some individuals. That claim to morality is diminished by the moralizer having to take the woman seeking an abortion hostage to their own personal morality. If you don't want an abortion, that's your decision. Making that decision for others is something else, and it's surely not so moral.

          • 1 vote
          #7.2 - Fri Jan 20, 2012 4:20 PM EST
          Socrates1

          Which does not change the basis on which some people view the situation.

          The rest is a discussion of abortion itself, not on the particular argument that is the subject of the article, nor of the discussion pertaining to a Libertarian being inconsistent.

          Don't worry, I'm planning on taking a look at some of the other arguments in the future. This one is just so off the wall I decided to start with it.

          • 1 vote
          #7.3 - Fri Jan 20, 2012 9:26 PM EST
          Reply
          Truth Sleuth

          Some homicide is legal. In states that use capital punishment, "homicide" is what goes on the death certificate after an execution takes place. Self-defense is another form of perfectly justifiable homicide.

          Abortion is not murder; it's a medical procedure, but to those who insist that it's murder, fine. Consider it justifiable homicide.

          The phoney argument that you can't be in favor of abortion rights and against the death penalty at the same time is illogical. The former has to do with autonomy and control over one's own body (which overrides any "rights" a fetus might theoretically have), and the other has to do with a state's right to impose the ultimate punishment after due process. And that due process is required to ensure that the rights of the accused have been upheld before he/she is condemned. So upholding one's respective rights in two entirely different situations are about the only thing the two have in common.

          But, philosophically, one can certainly be in favor of legal abortion but prefer that capital punishment be outlawed.

            Reply#8 - Wed Feb 1, 2012 7:12 PM EST
            Socrates1

            I'm not sure if you are simply giving your opinion, or responding to the article.

            Although our conclusions may have ended up being the same, stop comparing the two, my point was that it is normally the pro-choice people who are attempting to make the connection.

              #8.1 - Thu Feb 2, 2012 12:52 AM EST
              Truth Sleuth

              it is normally the pro-choice people who are attempting to make the connection.

              Hmm. My personal observation is that it seems to be the pro-lifers who question how one can be against the death penalty but in favor of abortion rights. But that's just my unsubstantiated observation and "feeling."

              Regardless, they are apple and orange. On that we agree.

              I'm puzzled, though, as to how or why my post warranted a response about some kind of distinction between "giving your opinion" and "responding to the article," other than some kind of desire to be antagonistic. But I'll just clear it up for you, for the record: I was giving my opinion, which should be construed as a response--at least marginally tangentially--to your article. :)

              Do pro-choice advocates really to discuss capital punishment?

              Sure. Sometimes. They are two different legal matters with different bases in the law and the Constitution, and they have nothing to do with "murder," as some folks like to correlate, but, yes, I, as a pro-choicer, don't mind discussing capital punishment and my opposition to it, but not in an abortion discussion. They are unrelated and, in essence, non sequiturs. Others may speak for themselves.

              I agree with the points you made in your article. If I need to be specific: That was a comment in response to your article. You may consider it an "opinion" if you wish or if that's somehow important to you and your moderating sensibilities.

              • 2 votes
              #8.2 - Thu Feb 2, 2012 4:32 PM EST
              Socrates1

              If I sounded antagonistic, and I can see how you might have taken it that way, I apologize.

              My statement..."Stop comparing the two.." was meant to be more general.

              As to who does it more? I agree that if we agree neither side should employ the tactic....we agree.

                #8.3 - Fri Feb 3, 2012 6:27 AM EST
                Reply
                Shannoscubie

                Yes. Let's unlink the comparisons. A fertilized egg should never be compared to a fully-grown human being, as far as legal rights are concerned, whether that fully-grown human is a convict on death row or a pregnant woman or anybody in between.

                Now what?

                • 3 votes
                Reply#9 - Thu Feb 2, 2012 12:23 AM EST
                Socrates1

                "Now what?"

                I'd say we agree. This comparison has been shown to be utterly fallacious, and both sides should forgo using it in the future.

                Next, would be what I propose in my other recent article, to which I believe you have already responded.

                thank you.

                • 1 vote
                #9.1 - Thu Feb 2, 2012 12:56 AM EST
                Shannoscubie

                Next, would be what I propose in my other recent article, to which I believe you have already responded.

                Sorry, which one was that? Really, I'm not trying to be weird. Could you link me up?

                • 2 votes
                #9.2 - Thu Feb 2, 2012 1:09 AM EST
                Socrates1

                I'm sorry...I'm the one that needs to apologize. For some reason I thought I remembered you commenting.

                http://socrates1.newsvine.com/_news/2012/01/31/10277752-something-pro-life-and-pro-choice-supporters-seem-to-agree-on-cross-posted

                  #9.3 - Thu Feb 2, 2012 1:13 AM EST
                  Reply
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