Newsvine
  • Welcome
  • Help
  • Report Bug
  • Conversation Tracker
  • Your Column
  • Replies
  • Friends
Type Comments Since You Last CheckedArticle Source Last Checked Stop Tracking All Clear Tracking All
Advertise | AdChoices
Log In | Register
Close the Login Panel
Existing users log in below. New users please register for a free account.

New Users:

Existing Users:

E-Mail:
Password:
Forgot Password?
Please enter the e-mail address or domain name you registered with:
E-Mail/Domain:
Back to Login
Log Out
  • Top News
  • Local News
  • World
  • U.S.
  • Sports
  • Politics
  • Tech
  • Entertainment
  • Science
  • Business
  • Health
  • Odd News
  • More
    • Arts
    • Education
    • Environment
    • Fashion
    • History
    • Home & Garden
    • Not News
    • Religion
    • Travel
Visit Socrates1's column >>

SOCRATES1

Articles Posted: 183  Links Seeded: 270
Member Since: 5/2008  Last Seen: 5/16/2012

What is Newsvine?

Updated continuously by citizens like you, Newsvine is an instant reflection of what the world is talking about at any given moment.

Get a Free Account
Help
Fun Stuff
  • Your Clippings
  • Leaderboard
  • E-Mail Alerts
  • Top of the Vine
  • Newsvine Live
  • Newsvine Archives
  • The Greenhouse
  • Recommended Articles
  • Wall of Vineness
Put a Seed Newsvine link on your own site

Pakistan's "Memogate"-Evidence of Treason?

Mon Jan 9, 2012 2:31 AM EST
politics, us, obama, pakistan, constitution, treason, foreign-affairs, memogate, admiral-mike-mullins
By Socrates1
Advertise | AdChoices

Pakistan’s “Memogate”-Evidence of Treason?

 

Although many Americans may not be that engaged in the ongoing scandal dubbed “Memogate”, I would suggest that there are some extremely interesting issues involved.  For those who haven’t been following along, the scandal was precipitated by the discovery, and subsequent publication of a memo purportedly sent from the highest levels of the Pakistani Government to Admiral Mike Mullins of the United States, who is now retired.  The fallout, to date, includes the resignation of the Pakistani Ambassador to the United States, a possible constitutional crisis, questions regarding the impartial nature of the Pakistani Supreme Court, and even the current and future stability of, not only the current elected government, but the stability of a democratically elected civilian government as a viable option.

I’m not about to make any claims regarding the provenance of the memo itself, but the thoughts contained within it raise some interesting questions as to what constitutes treason.  The general theme of the memo is that the civilian government fears for its survival and is very concerned about the possibility of a military coup.  Obviously, considering the history of Pakistan, this is not simply a concern that can be dismissed lightly.   Is it treason to appeal for outside help in suppressing just such a possibility? 

In the United States, the question of whether the military has the right to overthrow a duly elected civilian government barely need even be asked.  There is no question that it is the sworn duty of the military to protect and defend the Constitution which would include just such a civilian government.  If a plot was uncovered suggesting a coup was imminent it would be the officers who would be subject to the charge of treason, not the elected government.  Yet it is this very question which is at issue in the Memogate Scandal.

In fairness, the answer to the same question in Pakistan might be a bit murkier for a number of reasons, whether they are historical or relate to the present day.  The problem is that if this central question is not resolved in favor of the civilians than the only other alternative is to recognize the omnipotence of the military.  Those who support the military suggest that it is the military which has always preserved and protected Pakistan and that to trust the politicians is an invitation to disaster.  One might even suggest that the military has played the role of the Supreme Court and has intervened only when necessary to save the country from an even worse fate.  Few would argue that the civilian leaders have been beyond reproach and thus those who support the military do have reasons for doing so, but the question remains…Is it treason for a civilian government to take action to protect itself from a military coup?

The contents of the memo, as well as additional information, can be found at the following wikipedia link.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memogate_(Pakistan)

  • Enjoy this article? Help vote it up the 'Vine.

Back To Top | Front Page

Published to:

  • Socrates1's Column, All of Newsvine
  • Groups: Centervine, DA's ON Newsvine, EthicsVine, FOX NEWS, FoxNews, Free Thinkers, Invisible Viners, Libertarians, Political Analysis, The Conservative Vine
  • Regions: none
  • Public Discussion (12)
Socrates1

The question is one that Pakistanis are grappling with now. The answer may not be quite as simple as it might first appear.

  • 2 votes
Reply#1 - Mon Jan 9, 2012 2:32 AM EST
CL1

I must admit, that at first, after reading your story, I thought "no," but after consideration of this 'speculative' comment, I've decided, "yes,"...

Local media pundits debated the claims that the Pakistani president could be involved in a back-channel deal with the US to bring down the top leadership of Pakistan's military and install a new security team hand picked by Washington.[18][19]

  • 3 votes
Reply#2 - Mon Jan 9, 2012 5:37 AM EST
Socrates1

Thanks.

So, in terms of the comment, you changed your mind because of what?

  • 1 vote
Reply#3 - Mon Jan 9, 2012 6:15 PM EST
CL1

..because of the comment I highlighted had me thinking of a potential new objective by the Paki Government. When reading your presentation, my mind was thinking along 'help' us keep our civilian government (not treason). Then it occurred to me that it was possible their Officials contacted the Admiral seeking aid in 'ousting' certain military personnel (treason), and replacing them with a core group that would aid another agenda... still, *possibly* not in their 'people's best interest.'

  • 1 vote
#3.1 - Mon Jan 9, 2012 6:37 PM EST
Socrates1

It certainly isn't an easy issue with clear cut answers, but what you may not be considering is that our Presidents fire Generals all the time, and that is not considered treason, as the supremacy of the civilian government goes without saying.

  • 1 vote
#3.2 - Mon Jan 9, 2012 10:03 PM EST
CL1

"our Presidents" (the US?) fire generals of other nation's military? Or did you mean the leaders of other nations fire their own generals? To the latter, yes, that is what I thought. To the former, if that is what you meant, no, I didn't know that. I agree, a nation's Officials firing its Generals wouldn't be considered treason.

My guess in a *possible* request for help in 'ousting' was that I thought the military entity was stronger than the government entity --and that they needed help in getting certain Generals ousted.. but, most/many government deals have 'compromises' attached, so that's why I was agreeing with my highlight, that something of an insidious nature could be lurking.

  • 1 vote
#3.3 - Mon Jan 9, 2012 10:45 PM EST
Socrates1

I understand. My point being that our nation's civilians firing our nation's generals would not be treason. If that became impossible, and our nations civilians asked Canada's help militarily to stop our nation's generals from instituting a coup against the duly elected government of the United States I still don't know if I'd call that treason. Would you?

  • 1 vote
#3.4 - Mon Jan 9, 2012 10:56 PM EST
CL1

Ok, I see, you want us to focus the scenario on the 'citizens' rather than the government officials as the ousters. No, I wouldn't call that treason, assuming we had reason to believe that the "coup" was an attempt to usurp the 'rights' of the people.

  • 1 vote
#3.5 - Mon Jan 9, 2012 11:29 PM EST
Socrates1

Generally, one would think a coup is designed to usurp the "rights of the people", but, as I tried to indicate, all is not as clear as it seems.

I'd say that, in this case, it wasn't treason anymore than Kissinger going to China secretly for Nixon, or the CIA, under the President's direction, negotiating for peace somewhere in the world. I'm not fixed on this though. I appreciate your comments.

  • 1 vote
#3.6 - Tue Jan 10, 2012 1:59 AM EST
CL1

I'm not fixed on it, either. I understood your original suggestions that details aren't "clear."

I had decided to run with my highlight's suggestion of "a back-channel deal" between the Paki President and the US as a way to oust military leaders, and for the US to gain an edge.

Fun to speculate. Thanks for the article. :)

  • 1 vote
#3.7 - Tue Jan 10, 2012 2:54 AM EST
Socrates1

Thanks for your participation...it's a real issue which they are now in the process of deciding.

My vote would be against treason, as both sides may have been doing what they thought was in the best interests of the country...and, of course, themselves.

It's tough. Consigning the country to military dictatorships for the foreseeable future....which may be what they need....or....coming out in favor of the civilians and possibly having a failed state on our hands.

  • 1 vote
#3.8 - Tue Jan 10, 2012 3:18 AM EST
CL1

Consigning the country to military dictatorships for the foreseeable future....which may be what they need

That's true, considering their environment.

or....coming out in favor of the civilians and possibly having a failed state on our hands.

Another, Iraq, just what we need.

  • 1 vote
#3.9 - Tue Jan 10, 2012 4:09 AM EST
Reply
Leave a Comment:
You're in Easy Mode. If you prefer, you can use XHTML Mode instead.
You're in XHTML Mode. If you prefer, you can use Easy Mode instead.
(XHTML tags allowed - a,b,blockquote,br,code,dd,dl,dt,del,em,h2,h3,h4,i,ins,li,ol,p,pre,q,strong,ul)
Newsvine Privacy Statement
As a new user, you may notice a few temporary content restrictions. Click here for more info.
FUN STUFF:
  • Leaderboard |
  • E-Mail Alerts |
  • Top of the Vine |
  • Newsvine Live |
  • Newsvine Archives |
  • The Greenhouse |
COMPANY STUFF:
  • Code of Honor |
  • Company Info |
  • Contact Us |
  • Jobs |
  • User Agreement |
  • Privacy Policy |
  • About our ads
LEGAL STUFF:
  • © 2005-2012 Newsvine, Inc. |
  • Newsvine® is a registered trademark of Newsvine, Inc. |
  • Newsvine is a property of msnbc.com