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Sharia Courts in the West-A Good Idea?

Sat Jan 7, 2012 7:24 PM EST
human-rights, muslim, religion, justice, catholic, islam, first-amendment, christianity, morality, separation-of-church-and-state, jew, protestant, sharia-courts, individual-human-rights
By Socrates1
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Sharia Courts in the West

 

As the number of Muslims living in Western countries has increased, certain members of the group have become increasingly vocal in support of establishing their own court system.  It seems to me that all arguments in favor of this separate court system fail without further comment, and yet not only do supporters continue to advocate for such a result, but Western governments are increasingly caving to the pressure.  There are a number of reasons that separate court systems, in general, should not be tolerated, and even more so in regards to Sharia Courts.

One of the basic foundations on which our legal system rests is the concept that all citizens are equal before the law.  It is this concept that is under attack, not only by Muslims, but by other groups who have also confused the one notion that all individuals are equal participants in the same system, with the counter veiling idea that all individuals have the right to choose to which system they wish to adhere.  In the United States we do not have the right to simply decide that we will no longer abide by the Constitution based on an agreement reached by the two parties involved.  Contracts made in violation of that principle, and not condoned by the legal system, are thus extra-legal, not enforceable by the courts, and thus illegal.  All arguments to the contrary fail based on that simple test.

There are those, though, who continue to argue for a separate court system based on a variety of seemingly reasonable premises. Some argue that communities should be allowed to live in a way that reflects the values of their community, an argument with which I am very sympathetic, but with certain restrictions that must apply.  Others argue that other “court systems” already do exist such as those dealing with Catholic or Jewish Law.  The problem is that such arguments generally attempt to compare the proverbial apples with oranges.  Are there really any of you out there who would suggest that the findings of a Blood or Cript Tribunal should have the force of law?  The answer is obvious. 

It is the religious aspect that seems to be the most troubling to some, both for and against.  How does one address both the establishment clause and the free exercise clause of the First Amendment?  How does one integrate both the right to live according to the dictates of one’s religion and the requirement to live according to the laws of the land?  Interestingly, it is in examining this very question that we see the incompatibility between the Islamic view of justice and our own.  The very act of approving the use of Sharia Courts is antithetical to the Western Concept of Justice and is fully in line with the Islamic system of jurisprudence.  Islam requires the existence of two parallel systems of justice with Muslims occupying the premier spot and all others relegated to secondary status.  When one understands this simple, but extremely important, concept, one realizes that the very existence of Sharia Courts in the West is an attack on the values of the West itself.

Of course there is still the question of why should Sharia Courts be discriminated against, when the aforementioned Jewish and Catholic “Courts” already exist?  Aside from what I discussed in the previous paragraph, there are some very real differences in how the latter two approach their rulings.  One of the major differences is that, in what might be considered the worst case scenario, the very worst punishment available to either body is a sentence of banishment.  In other words, if a Catholic cannot receive an annulment of their marriage, any subsequent marriage may not be recognized by the Catholic Church and thus, to a Catholic, they are not married in the sight of God.  This ruling has absolutely no bearing on the legal status of the individual concerned who may have received a civil divorce and is thus free to marry another person of their choosing.  The ruling, thus, and in my open rightly so, fully protects the right of the Catholic Church to enforce the doctrine of the Church on its members while in no way running afoul of the law.  In like manner, Jewish Courts are specifically required to follow the law of the country within which it makes its findings.

In conclusion, there is no real comparison between the purview of a Sharia Court and other religious courts.  All citizens should have access to the same system of justice.  As previously mentioned, the very existence of such courts is an Islamic, not a Western, concept.  Should Christians also have their own court system?  How about any number of other groups who might also suggest they would prefer to go in another direction and thus simply ignore the present system of justice based on their own personal ideas of justice?  The entire concept is ludicrous to the nth degree. 

 

I recommend the following for further information.

 

http://www.americanthinker.com/2011/11/the_case_for_banning_sharia_law_in_america.html

 

http://www.americanthinker.com/2011/08/imposing_shariah_law_in_london.html

 

http://bigpeace.com/dyerushalmi/2010/09/18/is-shariah-the-same-as-jewish-law/

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  • Public Discussion (51)
Socrates1

The point is that we have two entirely different concepts at work here. Regardless of the value of either, both cannot exist at the same time.

  • 8 votes
Reply#1 - Sat Jan 7, 2012 7:25 PM EST
kpr37

Good article

I would like to add 'the reliance of the traveler" a guide to sharia law,Al- Azhar university has certified it as authentic http://www.cs.uwaterloo.ca/~omnafees/temp/Reliance-of-the-Traveller.pdf. From a Canadian university.

  • 8 votes
#1.1 - Sat Jan 7, 2012 8:11 PM EST
Socrates1

Thank you.

  • 2 votes
#1.2 - Sat Jan 7, 2012 9:57 PM EST
ngp256

religious run law, and courts should never be tolerated period. No religion has any right or privilege to run any country. People need to be free, and theocracies are the polar opposite of freedom.

  • 2 votes
#1.3 - Sun Jan 8, 2012 3:41 PM EST
lovemyplanet-400560

Slightly off topic. From kpr's link:

@A7.3: Offensive Knowledge
Offensive knowledge includes such things as post-classical poetry which contains
romance and uselessness.

I wonder what kind of punishment Sharia would impose on the reader of romantic English poetry...

  • 1 vote
#1.4 - Sun Jan 8, 2012 5:07 PM EST
kpr37

I wonder what kind of punishment Sharia would impose on the reader of romantic English poetry...

a harsh one ? (LOL)

  • 1 vote
#1.5 - Sun Jan 8, 2012 5:13 PM EST
lovemyplanet-400560

Well, since I've never really gotten into romantic English poetry, I seem to be shari'a compliant. I guess it's time to broaden my literary taste and go shopping! Will Keats do? Or Byron? :)

  • 1 vote
#1.6 - Sun Jan 8, 2012 5:19 PM EST
Reply
kpr37

Dr. Alan Godlas, Associate Professor of Religion at the University of Georgia, calls Reliance a "carefully translated manual of the proper practice of Islam (shari'a) according to the Shafi'i madh'hab. It has been an essential book in the library of any serious English speaking Muslim or scholar of Islam since its publication in 1991."

Below is a sampling of self-explanatory excerpts from Reliance. Note that comments from the different Muslim scholars (and the translator) are marked with parenthetical annotations labeled "O:", "A:", "N:", and "S:"

The rulings will look familiar. How odd that both Minhaj and Reliance misunderstand Islam so severely and so consistently.And how odd that the MCA deems these two books as the only books on Sharia worth highlighting on its web site.

Jihad

  • O: Jihad means to war against non-Muslims, and is etymologically derived from the word mujahada signifying warfare to establish the religion. (p. 599)
  • The caliph makes war upon Jews, Christians, and Zoroastrians (N: provided he has first invited them to enter Islam in faith and practice, and if they will not, then invited them to enter the social order of Islam by paying the non-Muslim poll tax (jizya))… (O: and the war continues) until they become Muslim or else pay the non-Muslim poll tax (O: in accordance with the word of Allah Most High, "Fight those who do not believe in Allah and the Last Day and who forbid not what Allah and His messenger have forbidden-who do not practice the religion of truth, being of those who have been given the Book – until they pay the poll tax out of hand and are humbled.” (Koran 9:29)... (p. 602)

Silicon Valley Sharia

This seems to be a "toxic" topic, few wish to discuss, as sharia law endorses the killing of apostates,and homosexuals, "troublesome" non-Muslims, and the subjugation of women.

this is "allah's" law, and can not be changed by mortal man,except under force of arms ( stealth bombers, Apache attack helicopters, Abrams tanks)

And yet still, sharia expands it control. soon many north African nations may become sharia compliant.

  • 7 votes
Reply#2 - Sat Jan 7, 2012 9:40 PM EST
Socrates1

It's the "head in the sand" response and an inability to realize that what may be completely unrealistic to some, is doctrine for others.

  • 3 votes
#2.1 - Sat Jan 7, 2012 9:58 PM EST
kpr37

It's the "head in the sand"

In San Francisco they endorse books calling for the death of homosexuals. How can this be ?

I really don't get it.

Presumably, the Muslim Community Association(MCA) of the San Francisco Bay Area would serve as the stewards of such a perspective. Billing itself as "one of the largest Muslim communities in the US," the MCA proudly proclaims that its members are "well-educated, well-traveled, and earn higher than average incomes in the San Francisco Bay Area." Even the mayor of Cupertino (Apple's hometown) recently visited an MCA Open House.

Yet the MCA's own web site makes it clear that Silicon Valley Islam is anything but innovative. Their online bookstore, which features a small but revealing set of "authentic" books about Islam, yields an interpretation of Islam that is draconian and unbending: an Islam dedicated to bringing Sharia to the world.

*2*Chapter P17.0: Sodomy and Lesbianism

@P17.1In more than one place in the Holy Koran, Allah recounts to us the story of Lot's people, and how He destroyed them for their wicked practice. There is consensus among

both Muslims and the followers of all other religions that sodomy is an enormity. It is even viler and uglier than adultery.

@P17.2Allah Most High says:

"Do you approach the males of humanity, leaving the wives Allah has created for you?

But you are a people who transgress" (Koran 26:165-66).

@P17.3The Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) said:

-1- "Kill the one who sodomizes and the one who lets it be done to him."

there is no consensus on the manner of killing.but all are unpleasant.Thrown from a great height, or crushed by having a masonry fall on them.

-2- "May Allah curse him who does what Lot's people did."

and 'allah" and or Mohammad, was dumb as @!$%#, Lot's people did not want anal sex forced upon them.It was the people of Sodom, who wanted to force anal sex on the visitors to Lot's place of residence.

-3- "Lesbianism by women is adultery between them."

adultery is harshly punished, 100 lashes with a bullwhip.or stoning

*2*Chapter P18.0: Charging a Woman Who Could Be Chaste (def: o13.2) With Adultery

http://www.cs.uwaterloo.ca/~omnafees/temp/Reliance-of-the-Traveller.pdf

  • 5 votes
#2.2 - Sat Jan 7, 2012 11:10 PM EST
Socrates1

Thanks again. It boggles the mind how many wish to simply ignore such information. I have had many Muslim friends, but if someone says they're going to kill me, I take notice.

  • 6 votes
#2.3 - Sat Jan 7, 2012 11:22 PM EST
kpr37

page 335 lying.

@R8.2: Permissible Lying

The Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) said,

"He who settles disagreements between people to bring about good or says something

commendable is not a liar.''

This much is related by both Bukhari and Muslim, with Muslim's version recording that

Umm Kulthum added, "I did not hear him permit untruth in anything people say, except

for three things: war, settling disagreements and a man talking with his wife or she

with him (A:in smoothing over differences), '' This is an explicit statement that lying

is sometimes permissible for a given interest, scholars having established criteria

defining what types of it are lawful. The best analysis of it I have seen is by Imam

Abu Hamid Ghazali, who says: "Speaking is a means to achieve objectives. If a

praiseworthy aim is attainable through both telling the truth and lying, it is unlawful

to accomplish through lying because there is no need for it. When it is possible to

achieve such an aim by lying but not by telling the truth, it is permissible to lie if attaining the goal is permissible

Jihad is in fact permissible. Therefore lying in support of Jihad is obligatory.

(N:i.e. when the purpose of lying is to circumventsomeone who is preventing one from doing something permissible), and obligatory to lie if the goal is obligatory. When for example one is concealing a muslim from an oppressor who asks where he is, it is obligatory to lie about his being hidden.

  • 3 votes
#2.4 - Sat Jan 7, 2012 11:23 PM EST
kpr37

Jihad page 275

Remember, Mustfa Kemal Ataturk abolished the caliphate , with the establishment of the Republic of Turkey in 1922

@O9.6 It is offensive to conduct a military expedition against hostile non-Muslims without the caliph's permission (A: though if there is no caliph (def: o25), no permission is required).

  • 6 votes
#2.5 - Sat Jan 7, 2012 11:27 PM EST
teufelhund

It is offensive to conduct a military expedition against hostile non-Muslims without the caliph's permission (A: though if there is no caliph (def: o25), no permission is required).

Cannot find the link or recall where I read it, but several years ago I was reading some islamic opinions on bin laden. The problem that many scholars had revolved around this situation with jihad declaration and permission/no permission of the caliph. Bin laden was of the opinion that because there was no caliph, he was justified in defending islam through jihad. Opinions of some of these islamic scholars were that islam was not under attack so bin laden had no authority to perform offensive jihad whether he had permission from a caliph or not. Others (that did not subscribe to shafi'i jurisprudence) that ONLY a caliph can make this decision, and therefore bin laden was not authorized to make the decision to perform offensive jihad.

Note that the disagreement was not that bin laden's jihad was legal or not, but only whether he was islamically correct in declaring jihad. Many muslim scholars claim that "terrorists" such as bin laden are going against the teachings of islam. From a western perspective, those proclamations sound all well and good - islam is not bad, just some bad guys taking things out of context. But those who make such proclamations are themselves being deceptive in that they are referring to this issue of caliph permission, not whether or not jihad is legitimate.

In efforts to skirt around the argument, bin laden always painted his attacks in defensive terms, blaming western countires for his actions. He was also islamically correct by first inviting the president and american people to islam before launching an attack and declaring jihad on the US. However, he only did this for western audiences where as muslims were addressed with a different message. Zawahiri the sock puppet explains:

We also extend our hands to every Muslim zealous over making Islam triumph till they join us in a course of action to save the umma from its painful reality. [This course of action] consists of staying clear of idolatrous tyrants, warfare against infidels, loyalty to the believers, and jihadin the path of Allah. Such is a course of action that all who are vigilant for the triumph of Islam should vie in, giving and sacrificing in the cause of liberating the lands of the Muslims, making Islam supreme in its [own] land, and then spreading it around the world.

http://www.raymondibrahim.com/search.php?cx=005623001258172681915%3At4krfiacu28&cof=FORID%3A9&ie=UTF-8&q=al+quaeda

Regardless of anything the west does that can be painted as the cause for defensive jihad, that last sentence shows that regardless of anything the west does, offensive jihad is always athorized. When pandering to the west, islamic scholars always claim that bin laden is borrowing from parts of islam to suit an agenda. They are referring to the shafi'i ruling on who is authorized to declare jihad, not if jihad is legal or not.

  • 4 votes
#2.6 - Sun Jan 8, 2012 2:42 PM EST
Socrates1

Well done.

  • 2 votes
#2.7 - Sun Jan 8, 2012 10:46 PM EST
kpr37

In efforts to skirt around the argument, bin laden always painted his attacks in defensive terms,

from an Islamic source, the differences between offencive and defencive Jihad (Jihad al-talab )

What everybody forgets is in Islamic theology sharia law is universal it covers every thing and all aspects of life

The Ruling on Jihad and its Divisions

Series of researches and studies in Shari’ah no. 2

Shaykh Yusuf al-Uyari (rh)

English Translation by Abu Osama for at-Tawheed Publications (al-Muwahhideen)

  • 4 votes
#2.8 - Mon Jan 9, 2012 11:52 AM EST
teufelhund

What everybody forgets is in Islamic theology sharia law is universal it covers every thing and all aspects of life

Yes it does...even how to take a crap and wipe, allah willing.

  • 4 votes
#2.9 - Mon Jan 9, 2012 11:56 PM EST
kpr37

even how to take a crap and wipe, allah willing.

in the linked book, it instructs how to enter the place where you relieve yourself, I forget what foot should enter first. But for some reason "allah" gives a $hit" (LOL)

What I really don't understand is the leftist/ progressive thing, attacking Jews and Christians, and letting Islam slide.It's mind boggling to a 'pagan'

  • 5 votes
#2.10 - Tue Jan 10, 2012 12:42 AM EST
Socrates1

What I really don't understand is the leftist/ progressive thing, attacking Jews and Christians, and letting Islam slide.It's mind boggling to a 'pagan'

Exactly..particularly when the actions of the one are used to justify attacking the other...just don't get it.

btw...left hand for the one, right hand for eating....in case you're ever in that situation.

  • 3 votes
#2.11 - Tue Jan 10, 2012 2:10 AM EST
teufelhund

in the linked book, it instructs how to enter the place where you relieve yourself, I forget what foot should enter first. But for some reason "allah" gives a $hit" (LOL)

Enter with the left, exit with the right:

79. It is Mustahab that a person sitting for relieving himself, sits at a place where no one would see him, and enters the toilet with his left foot forward, and comes out with his right foot. It is also Mustahab to cover one's head, and to place one's w eight on the left foot.

http://www.al-islam.org/laws/taharat.html#57

That link is part of a larger sharia collection here:

http://www.al-islam.org/laws/

It's shia sharia...I have a sunni sharia source somewhere, but I reorganized my links a while back and now I can't find it. Hat tip to organizing...

In that section above, allah says that it is ok to clean your ass with water, cloth, clod (dirt/mud?), or rocks. Apparently, when the quran was revealed, the all-knowing allah forgot about paper that people were writing books on just a desert hike to the north. If allah had remembered paper, he could have told mohammad to put the quran on it and wipe his ass with it...

What I really don't understand is the leftist/ progressive thing, attacking Jews and Christians, and letting Islam slide.It's mind boggling to a 'pagan'

Wondered about that myself. Maybe some sort of over-compensating protection for the minority you don't know against the devil you do know or something. A dude puts the 10 commandments in a courthouse lobby, a kid says a prayer at a high school football game, and people think you shouldn't kill unborn babies and all of a sudden its a theocracy...that is apparently racist against muslims, which it not a race. Additionally, they get sucked in by the platitudes and accept them, without any critical thought or any attempt to come to an understanding of islam. Taking the time to read the quran and the hadith and learning tafsir takes effort and time, and the government doesn't have a social program for that.

  • 5 votes
#2.12 - Tue Jan 10, 2012 9:37 AM EST
Reply
michael4644

i must comment later as i am too emotional about this and need to collect my thoughts in a rrational manner, before commenting. i agree it is a bad move to allow this sharia law into a country as a second teir of law, one for them and one for us.

we are all here under one law...

  • 3 votes
Reply#3 - Sat Jan 7, 2012 10:01 PM EST
Socrates1

Thank you for your interest.

  • 2 votes
#3.1 - Sat Jan 7, 2012 10:09 PM EST
Reply
Grisham

Sharia law should not be implemented. Neither should other religious laws. Sharia law is a dehumanizing, barbaric court system that advocates the killing of homosexuals and the supression of women among other things.

Could it be? I agree with you again, Soc.

  • 8 votes
Reply#4 - Sat Jan 7, 2012 10:21 PM EST
gmross

Grisham,

Sharia law should not be implemented. Neither should other religious laws.

I agree, besides there is one thing standing in the way of implementing them, it's called the Constitution of the United States.

  • 6 votes
#4.1 - Sat Jan 7, 2012 10:24 PM EST
Socrates1

Thank you both......as to whether anything is standing in the way of implementing them??

Take a look see at the line I provided above....and provide again below.

http://www.americanthinker.com/2011/11/the_case_for_banning_sharia_law_in_america.html

Not that the London one isn't even more frightening.

The possibility that Muslim-only towns and urban enclaves could be created in the U.S. seems unimaginable to most Americans, but it already is a reality. Just travel 150 mile northwest of New York City to the woods of the western Catskills, and you will find Islamberg, a private Muslim community founded in 1980 by Sheikh Syed Mubarik Ali Shah Gilani. Sheikh Gilani is said to be one of the founders of Jamaat al-Fuqra, a terrorist organization believed to be responsible for dozens of bombings and murders in the U.S. and abroad.

Read more: http://www.americanthinker.com/2011/11/the_case_for_banning_sharia_law_in_america.html#ixzz1ipmhV2a4

  • 2 votes
#4.2 - Sat Jan 7, 2012 10:33 PM EST
gmross

Socrates, no matter what happens in England, we have the first amendment here.

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion.

I think you will find this includes religious laws as well.

  • 4 votes
#4.3 - Sat Jan 7, 2012 10:37 PM EST
Grisham

Take a look see at the line I provided above....and provide again below.

They tried it here in Canada and failed. I make it a point of reading up on religions and Sharia law is horrific.

besides there is one thing standing in the way of implementing them, it's called the Constitution of the United States

When push comes to shove, the Constitution is only as stable as the people who back it. At the end of the day, it can be ammended. Let's hope that doesn't happen.

  • 6 votes
#4.4 - Sat Jan 7, 2012 10:39 PM EST
Socrates1

When push comes to shove, the Constitution is only as stable as the people who back it. At the end of the day, it can be ammended. Let's hope that doesn't happen.

And there you have it. I see a lot of people who seem to support the notion of Sharia Courts now, what would make me think that things will be any different in the future?

The point is...they presently exist, so how can anyone suggest otherwise? Perhaps its time for "Christian" Courts as well?

Thanks, and I hope this comment is taken as agreement, not disagreement.

  • 2 votes
#4.5 - Sat Jan 7, 2012 11:26 PM EST
Grisham

Perhaps its time for "Christian" Courts as well?

Easy Soc. LOL. Neither should be allowed. Neither Christian or Sharia should be allowed to be implemented or any other religiously based court.

  • 5 votes
#4.6 - Sat Jan 7, 2012 11:52 PM EST
Socrates1

Sure, I just thought I'd mention it...I'm certainly not advocating it.

  • 2 votes
#4.7 - Sun Jan 8, 2012 1:24 AM EST
lib50

No to ANY theocracy.

  • 1 vote
#4.8 - Mon Jan 9, 2012 3:23 PM EST
Socrates1

Sure, but the point is, Islam makes no provisions for an alternative....which is why they want the Sharia Courts in the first place.

  • 1 vote
#4.9 - Mon Jan 9, 2012 6:18 PM EST
lib50

Well there won't be any religious courts here, Islam. Christian or any other religion.

  • 1 vote
#4.10 - Mon Jan 9, 2012 6:47 PM EST
Socrates1

But there already are...which is why I suggest you click on the links I provided.

  • 2 votes
#4.11 - Mon Jan 9, 2012 10:05 PM EST
Reply
The Opposition

I want nothing to do with a court that favors any type of "religious" code. As our laws and government have been established, via the U.S. Constitution, as secular in practice, our courts cannot exist outside of this framework without being in violation.

There will always be people who want their religion respected above all others through the codification of their beliefs. If that number of people ever approaches such that could actually influence constitutional amendments, there may be a bit of blood spilled.

  • 1 vote
Reply#5 - Sun Jan 8, 2012 1:35 AM EST
Socrates1

Or they'll implement their policies democratically.

  • 1 vote
#5.1 - Sun Jan 8, 2012 1:56 AM EST
Reply
Enoch-2699399

Unfamiliar as I am with Sharia law, perhaps this may be helpful to some. I am sure it will not work for all.

If Halal, Muslim dietary law is to be followed for practicing Islam, and as long as no one who is not Muslim, or is Muslim but chooses not to follow Halal has to obey it, I find no fault in Sharia Courts making decisions about what is and is not Halal.

Using this as a precedent, where those who are Muslim, and wish to follow their religious laws, their courts would be logical places to look for guidance. This is with the provision that general laws which apply to all need not be bound by Sharia Courts, This would include non-Muslims, and Muslims who elect not to practice such law. The role of the Sharia Court here is to issue guidelines to the faithful who elect to practice their religion, where such matters to do not contradict general legal practices of the country in which they reside.

Thoughts?

Enoch.

  • 2 votes
Reply#6 - Sun Jan 8, 2012 3:23 AM EST
Grisham

This is going to sound blunt so I apologize in advance - we live in Secular countries. We have courts of law that are secular in nature. If they want to practice Sharia, they can move (or move back) to a non-secular country that bases their laws and court systems on sharia law. It has no place here. They are free to follow their religious precepts in accordance with our laws and that should be sufficient.

  • 5 votes
#6.1 - Sun Jan 8, 2012 12:16 PM EST
Enoch-2699399

The Sharia Courts do have a place. You articulated what that place is in your above post.

They are free to practice their religious precepts, to the extend that said practices do not violate general societal laws. That is my point.

In order to follow those precepts, they need their own legal system to render decisions on such matters as what does and doesn't conform with such practices as worship, dress, dietary, marriage, divorce, burial and holiday celebrations laws.

Where there is no conflict between general societal laws and religious laws each community of religious heritage who has laws, customs, traditions, and such needs their own, and not general guidelines to follow.

It is less, far less a matter of living in secular societies than it is of living in free societies. Muslims have every bit as much right to follow their own guidelines for life in secular societies if they so choose, as they do not to do so. The same as people like me whose beliefs are at times compatible, incompatible and not comparable to theirs. The same for you as an atheist.

In the last analysis, there must be a place in every free society for those who conform to reasonable general laws for the overall public good. They may opt to conserve and promote among those who elect to join them their own take on how to best live their lives. Anything less, and there is no more a free society.

No one has the right to impose on someone else their values. Freedom is not about which choice one elects. It is about having that choice.

Nobody should be made to choose between living where they wish, and being themselves. That isn't freedom, or anything like liberty.

Peace and Blessings, Enoch.

  • 2 votes
#6.2 - Sun Jan 8, 2012 2:52 PM EST
teufelhund

Enoch,

Generally, sharia courts do not decide on halal/haram matters, particularly when it pertains to dietary law. These matters have already been established by the various schools of jurisprudence and fatwas by authorized scholars/leaders that utilize existing jurisprudence. For example, facebook was recently declared haram in iran.

Sharia courts (in the west) are for deciding matters involving disputes between individuals, money/inheritance and marriage/divorce. In islaimc countries, sharia courst also decide criminal matters. The islamic perspective on all of these matters have already been determined by allah and his profit. There is no room for interpretation. For example, each individual case of divorce in a normal legal system is individually examined and the kids go to the parents based on the situation and all the visitation issues figured out. In sharia, the kids go with the father every time. That's it.

In europe they are already figuring out the problem with allowing a parallel legal system based on allah to exist. Things like sharia courts and sharia finance and halal food are demanded under the guise of religious rights. This had led to divorced women with no access to their children and non-muslim children in schools eating halal food without their knowledge (just to name a couple of examples). France also has areas that are no-go areas for non-muslims, including authorities. All of this stems from the multi-cultural/PC/tolerance/religious rights sharia-needs that muslims push for.

In europe, the demands for sharia courts wer met, which led to more demands. When does it stop, when we finally start stoning for apostacy? That's why we shouldn't allow anything that is sharia-compliant, whether its finance, food, or court systems into the country.

  • 4 votes
#6.3 - Sun Jan 8, 2012 3:16 PM EST
Grisham

They are free to practice their religious precepts, to the extend that said practices do not violate general societal laws. That is my point.

Yes. You don't need a court system to adjudicate on what to believe. I could practice religion in a church or community without a court system. We have a court system and it's a secular one.

In order to follow those precepts, they need their own legal system to render decisions on such matters as what does and doesn't conform with such practices as worship, dress, dietary, marriage, divorce, burial and holiday celebrations laws.

I disagree. They only need a church or to know their own religion enough to follow the precepts if they wish to.

Where there is no conflict between general societal laws and religious laws each community of religious heritage who has laws, customs, traditions, and such needs their own, and not general guidelines to follow.

The very idea of a religiously based court is against the laws. We have courts. Those are the courts of the land we live in.

Muslims have every bit as much right to follow their own guidelines for life in secular societies if they so choose, as they do not to do so.

Agreed. They do. They do within the framework of our countries. They don't have the right to expect special treatment.

The same as people like me whose beliefs are at times compatible, incompatible and not comparable to theirs. The same for you as an atheist.

True. But that's because I don't need special treatment. I live by the laws and like that I live in a secular society that allows everyone to practice whatever religion they want to if it doesn't break our laws. It's a beautiful concept.

No one has the right to impose on someone else their values. Freedom is not about which choice one elects. It is about having that choice.

To a point. When those values trample the separation of church and state then they've crossed a line that isn't meant to be crossed.

This is why the UK called multiculturalism a bomb. People move there and here and expect to set up their own religious courts and laws. It shouldn't be allowed. If they wanted to live by harsh sharia laws, then why even move here? I have no problem with Muslims or them practicing their religion. However, the buck stops at laws and court systems that are religiously fueled.

  • 3 votes
#6.4 - Sun Jan 8, 2012 4:04 PM EST
Socrates1

Wow Grisham...have you and I been taking "happy pills"??

Enoch...Your comment is completely in keeping with your personality, from what I know, and thus I understand the goodwill and tolerance that underlies what it contains. Unfortunately I did not do enough of a good job in explaining why what you suggest is impossible.

Aside from some of my other points, it is the extent to which their rulings apply that make the difference. Did you happen to take a look at the link provided regarding Jewish Courts? I imagine you are very familiar with them, but it is the comparison to Sharia Courts that you might find something of interest. The point is, under Sharia Law, banishment is barely even an option, rather we have much more violent options available.

It is a club from which one cannot escape, which makes all the difference in the world. If a Catholic is found "guilty" of blasphemy, he/she can be excommunicated and continue on with his life, just not as a Catholic. On the other hand, blasphemy in Islam is, at least in some cases, a capital offense, not to mention you don't even have to be a Muslim to have the sentence pronounced on you.

As I asked previously, would you also support Christian Courts, Atheist Courts, Buddhist Courts, etc., and all with full powers to pronounce sentences and have the legal right to carry them out?

We are not talking about whether a Muslim is allowed to eat pork here, and again, if we were, would you really support a sentence of death on a Muslim who ran afoul of the dietary laws?

I began answering this prior to reading some of the other responses, and thus apologize if I cover much of the same ground.

  • 1 vote
#6.5 - Sun Jan 8, 2012 10:59 PM EST
Reply
CL1

Fortunately, religious observers who want their disputes settled according to religious law generally have a simple solution: They can provide for arbitration by some religious tribunal that they choose, and courts will generally then enforce the result of that arbitration. Civil courts will no longer be called to decide what Islamic/Jewish/etc. law “really” requires, yet religious believers can have their disputes adjudicated under religious principles. And in fact there are such arbitral bodies around, in a wide range of religions, and they are often used.

  • 3 votes
Reply#7 - Sun Jan 8, 2012 3:13 PM EST
CL1

and courts will generally then enforce the result of that arbitration

I think that could be unethical in an example of Sharia Law. That would mean we have to potentially allow inhumane treatment in a country that would otherwise not allow it, yes?

  • 4 votes
#7.1 - Sun Jan 8, 2012 3:49 PM EST
Reply
fernando-2143457

Just a question or two. Whats the difference between Sharia Law and a homeowners association? Couldn't the people who want to set up an area where they follow Sharia Law just call it a HOA.

HOA's and the people who govern them can be pretty rough about how they punish the breakers of their rules. I don't personally agree with allowing for Sharia Law here in the States but I kinda see HOA rules and Sharia Law as the same beast.

    Reply#8 - Mon Jan 9, 2012 2:52 PM EST
    CL1

    but I kinda see HOA rules and Sharia Law as the same beast.

    I hadn't thought of it that way before, and I agree. Sharia Law proponents could very easily set up communities of their own, if not already doing so, going against our principles of freedom.

    Personally, I've always thought the US tends to follow whatever is happening in the UK, unfortunately. It would be nice to read entries from those abroad to comment on how the arbitration court issue has progressed for them, positively or negatively.

    • 2 votes
    #8.1 - Mon Jan 9, 2012 3:19 PM EST
    Socrates1

    Actually, no, which I attempted to point out in my piece.

    As an example, should you choose to leave the area covered by the Home Owners Agreement, you would no longer be required to meet the restrictions required by the Agreement.

    I am very sympathetic to community standards, but not to separate and extra-legal legal systems.

    In essence, we're not talking about rules that one must meet to remain a member of the group, we're talking about rules one must meet even if one wishes to leave the group.

    As previously mentioned, the existence of two sets of justice systems is Islamic in nature, and thus even their existence suggests a bias towards Islamic values as opposed to Western Values.

    • 4 votes
    #8.2 - Mon Jan 9, 2012 6:25 PM EST
    Reply
    bonos_rama

    These courts are bad for women, whether they are Beis Din (Jewish), Sharia, or any other religion. Women who try getting divorces in Beis Dins often find themselves discriminated against and their rights trampled upon because men ihave all the rights under Jewish law regarding divorce:

    http://www.jewfaq.org/divorce.htm

    Such women often find themselves anchored to men who refuse to give them a divorce. They are now a sort of outcast, called an "agunah", who cannot marry again. It would be the same with Sharia courts. The U.S. should not allow ANY religious courts. Religious courts are antithetical to freedom.

    • 2 votes
    Reply#9 - Tue Jan 10, 2012 7:44 PM EST
    Socrates1

    Similar, but not the same.

    The Jewish woman of which you speak could marry again.

    • 2 votes
    #9.1 - Tue Jan 10, 2012 9:37 PM EST
    teufelhund

    The Jewish woman of which you speak could marry again.

    A muslim woman can also marry again. However, in order to remarry the first husband, she has to be fuk'd by the second. Allah willing...

    • 4 votes
    #9.2 - Wed Jan 11, 2012 1:36 AM EST
    Reply
    teufelhund

    Forgot to post this...summary of sharia cases in several states as of 2010. Not sharia courts but sharia in regular courts. Makes for good reading if you're stuck at a taxi stand waiting on a cab for a couple hours...

    http://publicpolicyalliance.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/Shariah_Cases_11states_11-08-2010.pdf

    • 3 votes
    Reply#10 - Fri Jan 13, 2012 12:10 AM EST
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