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Pot—Legalize it Already

Wed Jan 4, 2012 5:09 PM EST
medical, politics, marijuana, pot, legal, drug-war, war-on-drugs, weed, legalization, dope, ganja
By Socrates1
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Pot—Legalize it Already

 

Why would someone generally labeled a Conservative advocate the legalization of marijuana?  Although there are more such creatures than one may be led to believe, it does sometimes put my credentials in question and even serves to make me less popular in some circles.  I, on the other hand, believe that I am being perfectly consistent and am supporting what is, essentially, the conservative position.

Although I find it somewhat incredible that the subject is even still being debated, I realize that there are a number of ways to look at the subject, and I’ll attempt to briefly examine each one.  Perhaps a look at the history behind criminalization would be the best place to start.  From a constitutional point of view, it would seem to me that proponents of criminalization have no leg to stand on.  One has only to look at the history of Prohibition to realize that, in terms of alcohol, there was never any question as to the need for a Constitutional Amendment if lawmakers wished to make the ban on alcohol nationwide.  Why then, did lawmakers decide to make an exception regarding marijuana?  Actually, they didn’t.  In 1937 the Marijuana Tax Act of 1937 was passed in an effort to curb marijuana use through the taxing power of the Federal Government.

It was almost exclusively due to the ambitions of Harry J. Anslinger, who saw an opportunity and took it, becoming the first “Drug Czar” of the United States. The sordid history of the campaign that resulted in what we have now includes racism, xenophobia, greed, crony capitalism, and big business pragmatism in legislating the competition out of existence.  Something that might surprise some of the readers is that the AMA (American Medical Association) spoke against the bill suggesting that, among other things, there was no scientific basis supporting the claims being made against it.  Further, when one of the Congressmen asked what the AMA’s position was, he was told, incredibly, that the AMA supported it.  In sum, the criminalization of marijuana was founded and passed on lie after lie, and yet, almost 75 years later, it still stands.(more info here)

Of course, not every reader will care that much about the illegality of the process used to make marijuana illegal and those same readers might even suggest that the ends justify the means.  As a conservative, I rarely attempt to use that argument, but, having said that, let me continue.  I would suggest that many of the same lies that were told to facilitate the passage of the 1937 law continue to be told, and believed, today.  I am not necessarily condoning the use of marijuana, or any other drug, but I do think that decisions of this magnitude should be made on a factual basis. The problem is, of course, that even hinting that one might support legalization based on the facts of the matter can lead to being considered a “dope fiend”, drug user, or family destroyer.  Those who support the continued criminalization of marijuana have done a good job of demonizing those who don’t, and, in so doing, have made it more difficult to be pro-legalization.  Who among us, myself included, wants to be viewed as a degenerate member of society over an issue that doesn’t necessarily have any personal impact?  This hesitancy to speak out is particularly true for a Conservative, as many have attempted to make it a Liberal versus a Conservative issue and thus a Conservative is neither welcomed with open arms by the Left, nor supported by his brethren on the Right. 

This leads to my point that a major objection to less stringent laws seems to be the purported effect marijuana has, not only on the individual, but on those around them.  I would suggest that this is part and parcel of the misleading campaign I referenced above.  This is the area where much anecdotal evidence seems to be presented, and accepted, whether it concerns someone the individual knows, or stories that have become virtual urban legends. For example, we have the claim that marijuana use produces violence (It doesn’t), or if you didn’t like the previous link, how about the following quote (bolding mine): 

“Among alcohol-dependent individuals, violence was best explained by substance use before the offense; among marijuana-dependent individuals, by a juvenile history of conduct disorder; and among individuals with schizophrenia-spectrum disorder, by excessive perceptions of threat and a history of conduct disorder.”

http://archpsyc.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/abstract/57/10/979

In other words, both according to the state and psychiatry marijuana does not produce violent behavior. 

We also have the suggestion that marijuana use can lead to a wasted life filled with irresponsible actions and negative consequences.  I’m not here to sing praises in favor of its benefits, but I do have some anecdotal evidence of my own.  Consider that many of our leading politicians have admitted to using marijuana at one time or another during their life time.  Now I’m not going to argue over whether they have wasted their lives or negatively impacted ours, but the point remains that they certainly were successful in pursuing their dreams.  In contrast, I would suggest that the true negative consequences of their marijuana use would have been if, like so many others, they had been snared by the legal system and blocked from pursuing their dream.  Likewise, I knew quite a few partakers of the evil weed during my college years and most, if not all, went on to lead productive lives after graduating.  This is not to say that some didn’t go too far, but in those cases I would suggest that marijuana use was a part of the whole, and, again, in many of those cases, the negative consequences were a result of getting caught, rather than from the use of marijuana itself. 

For some, the previous paragraph will not be enough to overcome the deep seated feeling that marijuana use is the culprit and results in all manner of negative consequences.  What about the brother-in-law, for example, that sits around all day smoking pot with his buddies while his wife, your sister, works her fingers to the bone making ends meet?  I would suggest two things that relate to similar situations.  In the first place, have you called the police and had him arrested for using marijuana, and only for smoking pot?  If not, you are agreeing with me.  What possible good would come from such an action?  If you see other remedies for those close to you, shouldn’t the same be true for others?  In the second place, if this mythical brother-in-law is still smoking pot all day, to the exclusion of anything else, I would suggest that there might be more deep-seated problems which need to be addressed, again, not something the legal system is really set up to do.  Thirdly, if your brother-in-law is smoking pot now, than it would seem that the fact that pot is illegal really isn’t relevant to his behavior and thus legalization would not affect the situation one way or the other.  Fourth, if this doesn’t describe your brother-in-law, and he is actually a productive member of society, while also being a pot smoker, than of what possible benefit is the criminalization of his behavior?

The next area of disagreement concerns the fairness of marijuana being illegal, while alcoholic beverages are not only legal, but advertised as well.  I can agree with the argument that the fact that one harmful substance is legal shouldn’t necessarily suggest that the other should be legal as well, but I look at it in a different way.  I would hope that few readers would argue that the side effects of two different cancer drugs should not be taken into account.  If one drug had less harmful side effects, I would certainly pick the one over the other.

In conclusion, I would suggest that there are two basic groups who oppose legalization.  The one group is represented by those who have a vested interest in keeping marijuana illegal.  This group would include those who presently supply marijuana as well as those who are the warriors in the “War on Drugs”.  The dirty little secret is that, just like a defense contractor who claims to be against conflict, but makes money in times of war, there is much money to be made by those involved with the “War on Drugs”, on both sides.  The second group, in my opinion, has been used by the first to provide a certain moral quality to the Drug War.  These are people who honestly feel that the legalization of marijuana would have all kinds of negative consequences.  As I have attempted to show, we already are experiencing any negative consequences which might be the result of using marijuana with the additional negative consequences of its illegality.  The point is, that just as with Prohibition, one doesn’t have to be a drinker, or condone the use of alcohol, to realize that Prohibition was a failed experiment. 

My next effort will further examine the subject from a cultural and religious point of view.  Thank you for reading and I hope that this effort is not just “preaching to the choir”.

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  • Public Discussion (282)
Jump to discussion page: 1 2
Socrates1

My opinion, you don't have to smoke pot to realize that you are being negatively impacted by the War on Drugs.

  • 14 votes
Reply#1 - Wed Jan 4, 2012 5:13 PM EST
Oliver Closoff

I've had enough first hand experience to understand both points of view but most arguments carry only little weight in my opinion. My feeling is that the CA med MJ law was working reasonably well until the Feds screwed us. That's as far as I would be willing to go with it.

  • 4 votes
#1.1 - Wed Jan 4, 2012 6:38 PM EST
o'stephanie

The War on Drugs is now fueling the privatixation of prisons, bringing in more customers every day. What makes the corporations money stays unless we...

Occupy!

  • 16 votes
#1.2 - Wed Jan 4, 2012 6:58 PM EST
Lisafrequency

burden the tax payers.

  • 5 votes
#1.3 - Wed Jan 4, 2012 10:16 PM EST
Uthaclena

Socrates1

I, on the other hand, believe that I am being perfectly consistent and am supporting what is, essentially, the conservative position.

I happen to agree, although I might quibble and call it an "old school" conservative position, not those current critters who I (being a progressive) would consider petty tyrants. Barry Goldwater and William F. Buckley, for instance, would agree with you. One would think Nelson Rockefeller would be in this group, but it was politically advantageous to pass draconian drug laws in New York State to prove just how "tough on crime" he was.

In fact, I would argue that, since there is no real evidence that marijuana is any worse - and likely less dangerous - than cigarettes or alcohol, this is the main reason we are still going around about this issue. It is a useful club to brand political opponents on being "soft on crime," and a law-enforcement option that allows the police to pin something on a person more than just creating a public disturbance.

  • 3 votes
#1.4 - Wed Jan 4, 2012 10:58 PM EST
Darryl Blackshear

what are you crazy? We can't make this stuff legal! Have you not noticed all of those people who kill people while driving under the influence of pot? Do you know how many people die of Cancer due to pot smoking? Oh wait a minute.......

    #1.5 - Thu Jan 5, 2012 7:45 AM EST
    Ripley8

    while I don't smoke pot ... don't care for it. My brother while alive was a daily smoker ( didn't smoke cigarettes nor drink ). He was in 2 accidents due to being high and driving . It does affect your reaction time. And when diagnosed with cancer that spread to his lungs could not receive pin point radiation due their condition to pot smoking. It may have saved his life if he could have received it.

    so to say it's harmless is ignorant.

    however , I do think it should be legalized. It should be a choice . No different than alcohol or cigarettes.

    • 8 votes
    #1.6 - Thu Jan 5, 2012 8:45 AM EST
    Socrates1

    I'm sorry about your brother. I agree that there can be negative consequences. I'd also suggest that, per your comment, the legal status didn't seem to make much difference. Thus, I agree that it should be legalized.

    • 6 votes
    #1.7 - Thu Jan 5, 2012 11:37 AM EST
    Publius 2012

    Socrates1

    I too am generally a conservative/ libertarian.

    Registered Republican.

    And I vote for legalization everytime it's on the ballot, which is quite often here in Colorado.

    And I have friends that are red card holders here.

    I've smoked it. Will again probably.

    I've got a couple of employees that do, their clothes smell of it, but I don't care about that at all, their job performance is superb.

    Your analysis is really good. We do already have any negative conseguences that legalizing would have. Every negative consequence cited is already happening.

    The costs, in monetary, human, and to our freedom is far too high in keeping it illegal.

    • 8 votes
    #1.8 - Thu Jan 5, 2012 6:57 PM EST
    sammy sezso

    o'stephanie

    The War on Drugs is now fueling the privatixation of prisons, bringing in more customers every day. What makes the corporations money stays unless we...

    Let me go burn one and get back to you on that thought.... :-)

    • 4 votes
    #1.9 - Fri Jan 6, 2012 10:02 PM EST
    Reply
    Bad Fish

    For the first time ever 50% of surveyed Americans support an end to the prohibition. This is good news. We just a few more Authoritarian slow breathers to hit the dirt and the failed war on drugs will finally come to an end.

    • 10 votes
    Reply#2 - Wed Jan 4, 2012 5:59 PM EST
    o'stephanie

    In Oregon, we call them mossbacks.

    ;>)

    • 6 votes
    #2.1 - Wed Jan 4, 2012 6:59 PM EST
    sammy sezso

    ...war on drugs...

    LMAO! Yea war on drugs, what a joke!

    The War on Drugs (like, but not to be confused with, The War on Child Pornography) is a popular hobby of most law-enforcement agents in the United States and was begun when Secret Service agents took it upon themselves to stop multinational corporations making shedloads out of drug addiction and buggered children and forcing those wishing to continue in their careers as drug dealers to go underground.

    The government continues to think that it has some strange right to @!$%# with peoples business (and computers) and thus, the drug industry now relies upon secret dealings involving code names that everyone knows such as "ice", "speed", "pot", "grass", "reefer", "skag", "smack", "crystal", "crank", "tina", "speedball", "bigflake", "charlie", "rock", and just about any other name that sounds vaguely like a Top Gun callsign. Most of these drugdeals "go down" in a place called "da hood" and could actually be anywhere between 20 feet and 20 miles from your house. http://uncyclopedia.wikia.com/wiki/War_on_drugs

    • 2 votes
    #2.2 - Fri Jan 6, 2012 10:06 PM EST
    Reply
    HydeWhyte

    I'm not a smoker but my vote goes to full legalization of medical and recreational use, not decriminalization or lessening of fines. No criminalization or fines at all. The only restrictions I support are those involving on-the-job use and I'm not talking about testing-positive because someone smoked some last week. My problems with criminalization lay mostly with the cops confiscating and selling personal property for the benefit of their departments financial budgets, not to mention locking people up and ruining their professional lives over posession of a plant. At a minimum, all such confiscations and sales of personal property should benefit drug rehab programs rather than the police depts doing the confiscating, and they should only take place under extreme cases such as drug-traffickers selling to children.

    • 14 votes
    Reply#3 - Wed Jan 4, 2012 6:55 PM EST
    Halifax Oliver

    Everything he ^ said. Good article Socrates.

    • 3 votes
    #3.1 - Wed Jan 4, 2012 11:26 PM EST
    Becky-2100114

    I'm with ya' Hyde. The drug traffickers allot for what is taken by law enforcement. It is such a small percentage to what is being dispersed and they're the ones winning. I say the "win" on the war against drugs would be to legalize it. Can you imagine how much money would be saved and put to better use? How much money is wasted on throwing pot heads in jail? They ain't hurtin' nobody and are NOT a danger to society. I'm not saying it's "healthy" but it's certainly less harmful than alcohol yet it's illegal? For basically the same reasons we got rid of prohibition......we should legalize pot.

    • 4 votes
    #3.2 - Thu Jan 5, 2012 9:43 AM EST
    Reply
    Ageing Hippie

    I've been a member of that choir a long time, singing wheezing my heart out

    • 5 votes
    Reply#4 - Wed Jan 4, 2012 8:22 PM EST
    sunshine girl-685508

    No selling to minors.

    No consumption for those under 21.

    No smoking regulation similar for tobacco in enclosed spaces.

    No public intoxication or DUI.

    Other than that, 100% decriminalization, regulate and tax if you grow for anything other than personal use.

    There are too many tragic cases of young people who could have otherwise bright futures getting locked up for simple possession and while in prison becoming hardened or being raped or killed. Medical studies are now also suggesting that the use of psychotropic substances has been shown to develop more empathy, creativity and expansive thinking. From Crick who discovered the double helix to Steve Jobs to almost every great song in modern rock. If it were not for these substances we would be very, very droll a species.

    • 5 votes
    #5 - Wed Jan 4, 2012 8:24 PM EST
    Bad Fish

    If the Democrat/Republican war mongers can sentence you to die by sending you to war for oil in the middle east, you should be old enough to make adult decisions. 18 should be the age.

    • 7 votes
    #5.1 - Wed Jan 4, 2012 10:07 PM EST
    Mike of the North

    No selling to minors.

    No consumption for those under 21.

    No smoking regulation similar for tobacco in enclosed spaces.

    No public intoxication or DUI.

    Other than that, 100% decriminalization, regulate and tax if you grow for anything other than personal use.

    Here's the problem I have, no test that I'm aware of ( I could be wrong) can you if someone is actually under the influence of marijuana. They can tell if you have smokes it, but not actually under the influence of it. That's going to make public intoxication/ dui or work place use nearly unenforceable.

    If there is a test that can, I would support legalization. But then you're also talking about how to quantify acceptable levels, etc.

    • 1 vote
    #5.2 - Wed Jan 4, 2012 10:47 PM EST
    Socrates1

    I'm simply not understanding what it is you are suggesting....

    In essence, it should be outlawed because it cannot be tested?

    • 1 vote
    #5.3 - Wed Jan 4, 2012 11:10 PM EST
    Mike of the North

    In essence, it should be outlawed because it cannot be tested?

    Pretty much. I'm not opposed to marijuana itself. I've done it, I have friends that still do but hey, one a computer programmer, another is currently making pizzas for a living and another a waitress. I'm hardly worried about the effects their drug use has on me.

    That said, I don't want my surgeon stoned, or the truck driver in the lane next to me behind the wheel of 18,000 of death, my airline pilot or the cop carrying a gun on the beat in my neighborhood or even my auto tech working on my brakes. I think most people would agree we don't want those people, or anybody on the street, in charge of heavy machinery or someone's lives, high as a kite. It's illegal to do most of those things under the influence of alcohol or other drugs, it would make sense that it would be illegal under the influence of marijuana.

    However, in order to enforce that, there would then need to be an accurate test that could determine not only that you had recently used it, but under the influence of it. Without it, marijuana would still be essentially illegal as anyone testing positive could be found guilty of doing any of those things under the influence even if you had smoke it a week or two prior.

    • 1 vote
    #5.4 - Thu Jan 5, 2012 12:41 AM EST
    Lisafrequency

    That said, I don't want my surgeon stoned, or the truck driver in the lane next to me behind the wheel of 18,000 of death, my airline pilot or the cop carrying a gun on the beat in my neighborhood or even my auto tech working on my brakes. I think most people would agree we don't want those people, or anybody on the street, in charge of heavy machinery or someone's lives, high as a kite. It's illegal to do most of those things under the influence of alcohol or other drugs, it would make sense that it would be illegal under the influence of marijuana.

    With maybe the exception of airline pilots I am sure it goes on everyday

    • 2 votes
    #5.5 - Thu Jan 5, 2012 8:16 AM EST
    Mike of the North

    With maybe the exception of airline pilots I am sure it goes on everyday

    And that makes it OK?

    • 3 votes
    #5.6 - Thu Jan 5, 2012 9:48 AM EST
    sunshine girl-685508

    While I understand your concerns Mike, they are hardly even factors right now. I know of surgeons and pilots showing up to work drunk and there have been countless drunk driving deaths.

    Do you agree alcohol should be illegal?

    • 5 votes
    #5.7 - Thu Jan 5, 2012 10:17 AM EST
    ana78041

    That said, I don't want my surgeon stoned, or the truck driver in the lane next to me behind the wheel of 18,000 of death, my airline pilot or the cop carrying a gun on the beat in my neighborhood or even my auto tech working on my brakes. I think most people would agree we don't want those people, or anybody on the street, in charge of heavy machinery or someone's lives, high as a kite. It's illegal to do most of those things under the influence of alcohol or other drugs, it would make sense that it would be illegal under the influence of marijuana.

    Of course there would be limitations when they legalize it just like with alcohol. People can't go to work drunk, can they?

    • 2 votes
    #5.8 - Thu Jan 5, 2012 10:28 AM EST
    Socrates1

    Mike, have you turned any of those people in?

      #5.9 - Thu Jan 5, 2012 11:40 AM EST
      Mike of the North

      While I understand your concerns Mike, they are hardly even factors right now. I know of surgeons and pilots showing up to work drunk and there have been countless drunk driving deaths.

      Do you agree alcohol should be illegal?

      It IS illegal to do most of those things under the influence of alcohol. The difference is you can reasonably determine through testing if someone is under the influence of alcohol. My point is that with marijuana, you can't. Only that they've used it within the past several weeks/ months...

      Being that they can test for the influence of alcohol, alcohol can remain legal while certain activities are prohibited while under the influence of it.

      Of course there would be limitations when they legalize it just like with alcohol. People can't go to work drunk, can they?

      And that is my point of you bothered to read my original post. There is no test I'm aware of that can test for the influence of marijuana, only that you've done it in the past weeks/ months. With no way of reasonably and accurately testing, there would be no way to enforce those limitations.

      Mike, have you turned any of those people in?

      Why are you asking me? I'm not the one that said they knew doctors going to work stoned. Apparently Sunshine is OK with that though.

      • 1 vote
      #5.10 - Fri Jan 6, 2012 7:49 AM EST
      Lisafrequency

      Being that they can test for the influence of alcohol, alcohol can remain legal while certain activities are prohibited while under the influence of it.

      This really has nothing to do with why alcohol is legal and pot is not. When they made pot illegal there was no testing for alcohol either. Pot is illegal because big corpo and big pharma do not like free market competition end of story.

      • 9 votes
      #5.11 - Fri Jan 6, 2012 8:03 AM EST
      Socrates1

      Mike, I appreciate your comment. Although I disagree with your conclusions, I can understand your argument.

      I asked you to find out if it is only "other people" who should be arrested.

        #5.12 - Fri Jan 6, 2012 10:23 PM EST
        Lisafrequency

        one that said they knew doctors going to work stoned

        More drs take prescription drugs than smoke pot. I would rather see a doctor high on pot than looped on opioids though.

        • 5 votes
        #5.13 - Fri Jan 6, 2012 11:31 PM EST
        Mike of the North

        This really has nothing to do with why alcohol is legal and pot is not. When they made pot illegal there was no testing for alcohol either. Pot is illegal because big corpo and big pharma do not like free market competition end of story.

        No, not end of story. While I understand the legality of pot vs alcohol has nothing to do with testing, we're talking about restrictions of use and enforcement of such restrictions. You've made it quite clear you oppose all restrictions as you don't care if your surgeon is jacked up on whatever...

        The rest of us would probably feel as though certain restrictions, like those placed on alcohol, were in place. However, to do that, you would have to be able to enforce them.

        Mike, I appreciate your comment. Although I disagree with your conclusions, I can understand your argument.

        Ok... what do you disagree with? That there should be restrictions on use? That there is no way to accurately determine the difference between recent marijuana use and actually being under the influence of? What is it you disagree with?

        Let's say marijuana was made illegal and followed the same restrictions as alcohol concerning the limitations use like impaired driving etc... With current testing methods, anyone who has used in the passed month or so could be charged and convicted of a DUI.

        That would essentially make legalization pointless as it would be illegal for most people to go about their lives legally and use this otherwise legal substance at the same time.

        Be clear what you're advocating... is it unrestricted use? If so say it, but I don't think you've convince many people of that. If there are going to be restrictions though, again, you have to be able to enforce them.

        • 2 votes
        #5.14 - Sat Jan 7, 2012 8:25 AM EST
        Lisafrequency

        I bet they could test to see it there was residue on the hands or lips and call that DWI

        • 1 vote
        #5.15 - Sat Jan 7, 2012 10:44 AM EST
        Lisafrequency

        You've made it quite clear you oppose all restrictions as you don't care if your surgeon is jacked up on whatever...

        It is not that i like drs being high I said i would rather a doctor be high on pot than opioids or some of the forms of meth that are prescription drugs. I have seen it a lot as I have worked in the health care field and I know what being high on all of these drugs looks like.

        • 2 votes
        #5.16 - Sat Jan 7, 2012 10:52 AM EST
        Becky-2100114

        Ok.....I was born in 1973 and my husband is a "love" child.......69' baby. I know more people who smoke then I can count. When a person is at the peek of their high, that is the only time they shouldn't be driving and they know it. They're too paranoid to turn the key until their buzz passes. They'll sit in the driveway laughing.........."I shouldn't do this.....we'll just wait." All I'm trying to say is you don't loose your senseswhen high on marijuana like you do on alcohol and other drugs. It might "delay" someones reaction time but people who are driving "high" are easily mistaken for old people on the road. They're slow and overly cautious. Oh my goodness........an old person isn't the safest driver, a 16 year old boy wanting to "romp" his dad's car isn't the safest driver. We just need to lighten up and we can't prevent people from making bad choices. They're going to do it anyway whether it's legal or not. It's our nature. I say, if someone is driving on the road and breaking the rules of the road then they should be held responsible. That simple.

        • 5 votes
        #5.17 - Sat Jan 7, 2012 11:30 AM EST
        Socrates1

        Mike of the North

        As you quoted one of my statements, I assume much of your post was directed at me.

        1. No, I don't advocate unrestricted use.

        2. As already mentioned, any actions which have negative consequences taken while under the influence should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.

        3. At the present we have no way of knowing who is driving, flying, operating, etc. under the influence of marijuana.

        4. Assuming an accident occurs and tests reveal that marijuana is in the system I'm really not sure what difference that would make. Regardless of the status of the driver, the consequences should be the same.

        5. I do have a problem with making something illegal simply because we can't test for it. It seems to turn our legal system on its head. Isn't that the exact opposite of the argument suggesting you shouldn't "profile"?

        Sorry if the following results in me covering the same territory twice...

        Let's say marijuana was made illegal and followed the same restrictions as alcohol concerning the limitations use like impaired driving etc... With current testing methods, anyone who has used in the passed month or so could be charged and convicted of a DUI.

        I'm assuming you meant made legal. My point, again, is that the driver is fully responsible for whatever may occur when behind the wheel of the vehicle, regardless of when he may have used marijuana. In terms of how to test....perhaps "legal" marijuana would be required to have some other substance in it with less of a residual effect which might indicate the time frame. ie. if the extra substance is still in your blood it would indicate you had "gotten high" within the last two hours.

        That would essentially make legalization pointless as it would be illegal for most people to go about their lives legally and use this otherwise legal substance at the same time.

        See above...suggested testing procedures. As an aside, not if those same people decided to forgo the activities which you are worried about.

        Be clear what you're advocating... is it unrestricted use?

        No.

        If so say it, but I don't think you've convince many people of that. If there are going to be restrictions though, again, you have to be able to enforce them.

        Again, no, but your question indicates that I have failed in my attempt to present my much more pragmatic reasons for advocating legalization. First, I am not requiring, or suggesting, that everyone use marijuana, nor am I suggesting that being high one's entire life is the same thing as having a smoke on an occasional Friday night. We already experience many of the negative consequences of which you speak, I'm trying to ameliorate those consequences.

        Thanks for your participation.

        • 3 votes
        #5.18 - Sat Jan 7, 2012 7:47 PM EST
        Mike of the North

        All I'm trying to say is you don't loose your senseswhen high on marijuana

        You obviously didn't know me when I smoked, or seen my roommate high...

          #5.19 - Sun Jan 8, 2012 2:31 PM EST
          Becky-2100114

          You obviously didn't know me when I smoked, or seen my roommate high...

          Did you have illusions of grandeur while high or were you aware of your silliness? Drunks don't have self awareness. They always think they're more capable then they really are.

          • 2 votes
          #5.20 - Sun Jan 8, 2012 2:49 PM EST
          Mike of the North

          1. No, I don't advocate unrestricted use.

          Ok, now we're at least clear on that.

          2. As already mentioned, any actions which have negative consequences taken while under the influence should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.

          First you have to determine what is 'under the influence' of marijuana meaning, you'd have to find a way to test, quantify and measure acceptable and non acceptable levels.

          4. Assuming an accident occurs and tests reveal that marijuana is in the system I'm really not sure what difference that would make. Regardless of the status of the driver, the consequences should be the same.

          There are no (criminal) 'consequences' for accidents. The status of the driver IS the difference between an accident, and a crime.

          Currently if one is suspected of drunk driving, it is simply not enough for prosecutors to say you have had alcohol to prove you were impaired. There are established criteria which can be tested and proven that one has a certain level of intoxication.

          perhaps "legal" marijuana would be required to have some other substance in it with less of a residual effect which might indicate the time frame. ie. if the extra substance is still in your blood it would indicate you had "gotten high" within the last two hours.

          Except that many people would grow it themselves, there by not having said substance.

          First, I am not requiring, or suggesting, that everyone use marijuana, nor am I suggesting that being high one's entire life is the same thing as having a smoke on an occasional Friday night.

          And the point I am trying to make is without establishing a criteria for determining the difference between someone under the influence and someone who took a couple hits last friday night then you really haven't legalized it. Most people are going to have to go to work sometime in the next 4 to 6 weeks, most will have to drive...

          As I said. I'm all for legalization if you can tell me with scientific evidence, who is lit and who simply has it in their system when it comes to certain activities stoned people shouldn't do.

          • 1 vote
          #5.21 - Sun Jan 8, 2012 2:56 PM EST
          Kyle-2710718

          First you have to determine what is 'under the influence' of marijuana meaning, you'd have to find a way to test, quantify and measure acceptable and non acceptable levels.

          The Standardized Fteld Sobriety Test (SFST) that police officers use on DWI stops is also an effective tool to detect people under the influence of drugs.
          A properly conducted and documented SFST, combined with a positive drug test would be sufficient until a more accurate scientific test is devised.

            #5.22 - Sun Jan 8, 2012 5:44 PM EST
            sammy sezso

            First you have to determine what is 'under the influence' of marijuana meaning, you'd have to find a way to test, quantify and measure acceptable and non acceptable levels.

            They already mass spec. that can test in ppb. It is used regularly in pre-employment testing. They would just have to establish at what level does impairment start. Just like drinking, just because you took a drink, it doesn't mean your are impaired.

              #5.23 - Sun Jan 8, 2012 6:08 PM EST
              Socrates1

              Mike of the North...appreciate you point by point response, and yet you actually prove my point. You indicate you used marijuana in the past, would your arrest and subsequent incarceration have served any purpose?

              First you have to determine what is 'under the influence' of marijuana meaning, you'd have to find a way to test, quantify and measure acceptable and non acceptable levels.

              There are no (criminal) 'consequences' for accidents. The status of the driver IS the difference between an accident, and a crime.

              Currently if one is suspected of drunk driving, it is simply not enough for prosecutors to say you have had alcohol to prove you were impaired. There are established criteria which can be tested and proven that one has a certain level of intoxication.

              I understand my view may not be mainstream, but I really don't see any difference. If you are the cause of an accident, what does it matter whether you were, or were not, under the influence?

              As to the testing procedures, others seem to have responded to your comments.

                #5.24 - Sun Jan 8, 2012 6:37 PM EST
                HydeWhyte

                As I said. I'm all for legalization if you can tell me with scientific evidence, who is lit and who simply has it in their system when it comes to certain activities stoned people shouldn't do.

                I would have to check up on it but the last I read, the cut-off between a postitve and negative test for THC is 50 micrograms in your system. The level is highest right after use and gradually drops over time. If the federal authorities would allow, it would not be difficult for scientists to determine and establish such criteria to know how much it takes to be actively impaired. But since THC is classified as a Schedule 1 drug, conducting research into that is illegal. Bottom line is they don't want to go down that road of establishing any sensible basis that would support legalization efforts.

                • 5 votes
                #5.25 - Sun Jan 8, 2012 11:13 PM EST
                Mike of the North

                If you are the cause of an accident, what does it matter whether you were, or were not, under the influence?

                Negligence. An accident is an accident, none of us are infallible, therefor it is not illegal to make a mistake. Impairment is a self inflicted, PREVENTABLE condition which can lead to mistakes and driving under such conditions is negligent.

                • 2 votes
                #5.26 - Mon Jan 9, 2012 7:22 PM EST
                Socrates1

                If an "accident" occurs through negligence, it seems it would be preventable.

                • 1 vote
                #5.27 - Mon Jan 9, 2012 9:37 PM EST
                Becky-2100114

                Yep....putting on lipstick, jamming out too hard to the music, gabbing too much to others in the car, talking on the phone.....texting....etc....all negligent.

                Or....how about this one which is SO ridiculous but we might as well include that too......being to heavy to have "proper" reaction time. Oh.....can't forget the handicapped! Come on people!

                • 3 votes
                #5.28 - Mon Jan 9, 2012 9:50 PM EST
                Mike of the North

                If an "accident" occurs through negligence, it seems it would be preventable.

                Which is why accidents involving negligence often have criminal penalties where as simple accidents do not.

                • 2 votes
                #5.29 - Tue Jan 10, 2012 12:39 AM EST
                Socrates1

                The thing is...for me...this conversation is really moving us away from the focus of the article.

                I understand you feel that the answer to the question determines your position on the subject of the article.

                Thus I can only say that, according to some, there are ways to address the concerns you have, and, I would assume, if that is the case you would support legalization.

                • 3 votes
                #5.30 - Tue Jan 10, 2012 2:01 AM EST
                Becky-2100114

                Socrates.......your name suits you. Have you noticed that you say something very wise and I follow it with the dumbied down version? I have to admit, sometimes I have to read it a few before I can explain what you're saying to others. lol You rock. :)

                • 3 votes
                #5.31 - Tue Jan 10, 2012 9:25 AM EST
                Socrates1

                I really did lol

                • 3 votes
                #5.32 - Tue Jan 10, 2012 2:46 PM EST
                Mike of the North

                Thus I can only say that, according to some, there are ways to address the concerns you have,

                I'm sure there are but I haven't seen any, and no one has really presented any. I DO think the door needs to be opened up so people can research... one step at a time.

                and, I would assume, if that is the case you would support legalization.

                You are correct.

                  #5.33 - Wed Jan 11, 2012 10:23 AM EST
                  Reply
                  Infohack

                  Very well-reasoned argument.

                  I would only add that with regard to criminalizing a substance, this country already tried an experiment with making a widely-used and popular substance illegal with the Eighteenth Amendment and Prohibition, and the results were a booming black-market economy and very little change in the behavior of consumers.

                  It never ceases to amaze me that those who loudly sing the praises of the free market turn a blind eye to the obvious parallel between Prohibition and the War on Drugs, and the entirely predictable outcome that following the same failed policy has had - a booming black-market economy and very little change in the behavior of consumers.

                  I'll look forward to the next installment.

                  • 6 votes
                  Reply#6 - Wed Jan 4, 2012 8:54 PM EST
                  MeanGene-3334839

                  Marijuana will never be legalized, and here's the reason why:

                  Contrary to the pro-pot assertions that a majority of Americans approve whole-heartedly of drug abuse, the fact of the matter is that this nation is moving towards prohibition rather than further from it.

                  For example, in 1970 about HALF of American adults used tobacco. They were 'smokers', and cigarettes were everywhere, and even allowed everywhere. Smoking was allowed on airline flights and in restaurants and even in classrooms. Not anymore. Today, restrictions on smoking are ubiquitous, as basically there is no such thing as a public place where smoking is allowed anymore. Taxes on cigarettes are punitive, as a pack of cigarettes which costs less than a dollar to manufacture will cost about $6 per pack due to a 600% tax rate, and going up all the time.

                  Today, it's not HALF of Americans using tobacco. Nope. It's about 18% and falling by about half a percent per year. At the current rate of attrition, it should be just about impossible to find or buy a tobacco cigarette in the USA by the year 2040.

                  If tobacco doesn't convince you that America is moving towards prohibition, then let's discuss alcohol. When W. Bush got his DUI, he was damned lucky he got that DUI back in 1976 before MADD (Mothers Against Drunk Driving) made it a lot more than just a traffic ticket. The national drinking age in the USA, which used to be as low as 18 in some States until 1985, is now 21. The USA is bar none the nation with the highest national legal drinking age, and it went up, not down.

                  Presumptive DUI, which used to be a national standard at 0.1% has been lowered to 0.08% in a further display of less tolerance. For commercial drivers and pilots, it's even lower than that, 0.04% will result in a revocation of a license, and generally, there's no getting it back.

                  If Tobacco and Alcohol don't convince you that America is moving towards prohibition rather than away from it, I'd remind you that several States (California and New York) have outlawed trans fats in restaurants. That's right, they're regulating margarine now, and that's becoming a banned substance.

                  If potheads think they're living in a nation becoming more tolerant and less prohibitive, then I've got to wonder what the heck they're smoking! Actually, nevermind. I know what it is they're smoking, and it's never going to be legalized.

                  • 2 votes
                  #7 - Wed Jan 4, 2012 8:57 PM EST
                  Socrates1

                  Certainly some good points. Perhaps the answer is to concentrate on penalizing the effects, but not the usage.

                  • 1 vote
                  #7.1 - Wed Jan 4, 2012 10:17 PM EST
                  MeanGene-3334839

                  

                  Certainly some good points. Perhaps the answer is to concentrate on penalizing the effects, but not the usage.

                  The usage has an effect, so there's really no difference. Unless you believe the John has a higher moral fiber than the Prostitute does. Some people do think that way, that the solicitor is somehow superior to the whore. I do not think in that way. I believe in equal guilt.

                  This means in the realm of drug dealing that the seller and the purchaser involved in any transaction which they both know is illegal are equally criminal. Soliciting a crime is hardly less criminal than commiting a crime yourself, now is it?

                  • 1 vote
                  #7.2 - Wed Jan 4, 2012 10:57 PM EST
                  Uthaclena

                  MeanGene-3334839

                  If Tobacco and Alcohol don't convince you that America is moving towards prohibition rather than away from it, I'd remind you that several States (California and New York) have outlawed trans fats in restaurants. That's right, they're regulating margarine now, and that's becoming a banned substance.

                  I'd argue with your use of "Prohibition" to describe this trend, because manufacture, distribution, and sale are not being prohibited; however, it would be accurate to say that there is a punitive approach to the public health considerations. Iself have mixed feelings about this; the Libertarian in me dislikes it, but the Socialist in me is in agreement! ;-p

                    #7.3 - Wed Jan 4, 2012 11:05 PM EST
                    Socrates1

                    Mean Gene...perhaps I was not as clear as I should have been...In other words, simply being "high", particularly in the privacy of one's home should not be a crime, but any crime committed under the influence should not have that influence considered a mitigating factor.

                    • 2 votes
                    #7.4 - Wed Jan 4, 2012 11:12 PM EST
                    HydeWhyte

                    Mean Gene...perhaps I was not as clear as I should have been

                    Sometimes, and with some users, that concept just isn't possible. Such is what you have stumbled into this time, Socrates. But have fun in your attempt to present reason and rationality:)

                    • 3 votes
                    #7.5 - Wed Jan 4, 2012 11:31 PM EST
                    MeanGene-3334839

                    People aren't "high" in the privacy of their own home, or they wouldn't be caught. I don't have any cops in my home, do you have any in your home? Cops don't patrol in homes, and yet there are some 800,000 marijuana arrests made every year, presumably not in the home.

                    Potheads are high most of the time. Marijuana can be detected for weeks after use, because it still has effects weeks after use. Any person driving a car who has used marijuana within the past month is driving under the influence. The drug bonds to fat cells and is released when fat is burned, this is known as the "flashback high". It can happen at any time and is completely unpredictable, happening months, even years after the use of marijuana.

                    Anyone who has ever used marijuana is a ticking time bomb ready to get unpredictably stoned at any moment, and they can't control whether or not they're in the privacy of their own home or behind the wheel of a vehicle when it happens. That's why nobody who has ever used marijuana should ever be allowed to hold a driver's license again in their lives.

                    As for crimes committed under the influence of marijuana, that should be considered an aggravating factor considering the proof of mens rea (criminal mind) it provides. Crime and marijuana have long had a cozy relationship which is why where there's crime, marijuana is never too far away.

                    Problems in the home never stay in the home. Kids abused at home grow up to be psychos on the street. Kiddie porn produced at home winds up on the internet. Wives beaten at home wind up in public hospitals or public cemetaries. The "in the home" argument is, quite frankly, a load of BS. Play with fire in your own home and you can burn down your whole neighborhood.

                    • 1 vote
                    #7.6 - Thu Jan 5, 2012 6:31 AM EST
                    Becky-2100114

                    I have to say, your perception of marijuana is slightly off MeanGene. I was starting to wonder if you were high yourself? Having a "flashback" maybe? I've done pot before and have NEVER experienced anything like you described. I did it a LOT in high school. I now have 3 children and am 38 years old. Are you telling me you don't think I am deserving of a drivers license because I've done it before? I'm wondering if you watched too many of those propaganda movies (Reefer Madness) growing up. You sound an awful lot like my father-in-law. lol

                    REEFER MADNESS!!!!

                    • 8 votes
                    #7.7 - Thu Jan 5, 2012 9:53 AM EST
                    sunshine girl-685508

                    Mean Gene,

                    A little sensationalized and too much use of outmoded propaganda with no substance.

                    • 4 votes
                    #7.8 - Thu Jan 5, 2012 10:28 AM EST
                    Socrates1

                    One has to wonder if certain perspectives really exist.

                    • 2 votes
                    #7.9 - Thu Jan 5, 2012 11:42 AM EST
                    MeanGene-3334839

                    I've done pot before and have NEVER experienced anything like you described. I did it a LOT in high school. I now have 3 children and am 38 years old. Are you telling me you don't think I am deserving of a drivers license because I've done it before?

                    When a gross display of irresponsibility has been demonstrated, then absolutely a driver's license should be withheld. That's why a DUI results in a license suspension in most States in the USA. Reckless and irresponsible drivers on the roads are more than a nuisance, they're a deadly hazard.

                    Abuse of drugs for recreational purposes is a gross display of irresponsibility. I do not want irresponsible drivers behind the wheel, and I doubt that anyone sane would want that either.

                    I'm wondering if you watched too many of those propaganda movies (Reefer Madness) growing up.

                    Reefer Madness, while a fabulous documentary, was not how my views on marijuana were shaped. I joined the US Navy at a fairly young age, at 17, and was instantly indoctrinated by the US NAVY "zero tolerance" policy. The military absolutely does not tolerate drug abuse because the stakes are too high. Those cannons and missiles and torpedos and machine guns on the ships, those are stone cold real. It's not a game and no way is anyone going to be allowed to handle the dogs of war without 100% of his wits about him, clean and sober.

                    ZERO TOLERANCE means if you're busted on a drug test, that is the end of you. You will be dishonorably discharged, get no military benefits whatsoever and wear that albatross around your neck for the rest of your born days, unforgiven as those who disobey orders ought to be.

                    I turned in several druggies myself. I didn't want their kind on my ship, in my Navy, or even in my nation. They're dangerous to themselves, they're dangerous to others and if they're willing to commit one crime for their jollies, who's to say there's ANYTHING that isn't too criminal for the likes of those criminals to consider fun sport?

                    • 1 vote
                    #7.10 - Thu Jan 5, 2012 8:31 PM EST
                    Socrates1

                    Well, keeping that in mind, have you considered that there is a difference between the military and the civilian world?

                    Further, it seems to me that you are missing one of my fundamental points, which is that the subject of this particular article is not to condone the use of marijuana, nor to get into an in depth discussion over its effects, but whether the present policy is the most effective one to deal with the situation. I understand your position to be that the ruined and wasted lives of those who were caught up in the criminal justice system is an acceptable price to pay and that were you to discover your mother smoking pot to alleviate her aches and pains you would disown her and call 911. I have to say that your apparent position is reminiscent of the 1930's rather than the 2000's, but you have that freedom. My position is that the cure is worse than the disease and only benefits the criminal element, ironically of whom you seem to care not a whit and yet you wish to pour monies into their coffers. In addition, your position creates more criminals, and creates an adversarial relationship between an entire sector of the populace and law enforcement personnel that simply doesn't need to be there. In other words, your position creates exactly the situation that you claim to oppose.

                    So, if I wanted a law abiding society which supported exactly what you suggest....I would, as I have suggested, legalize marijuana and address the other problems in a different venue.

                    • 3 votes
                    #7.11 - Thu Jan 5, 2012 9:41 PM EST
                    Becky-2100114

                    The military absolutely does not tolerate drug abuse because the stakes are too high.

                    Where were you during Vietnam then? No tolerance? Bahahahahaha

                    I'm hearin' ya' MeanGene.........you know EXACTLY what everyone needs to do in this world and what's good for them. I shouldn't be driving today because I smoked weed 15+ years ago. You think I should pay for my extreme irresponsibility. That makes me kinda want a joint right this very minute so I can just chill for a minute. You've got me fired up! lol Man.....if you knew ALL that I've done, you'd wish me dead I'm sure. I wouldn't be deserving of life. I sure hope you're not a gluten sitting behind your computer screen saying what my life SHOULD be if you had your way and that you make all the right choices. I have paid the natural consequence for my sins and PRAISE GOD I only need His forgiveness for my transgressions through life and not yours! Uggggg

                    • 4 votes
                    #7.12 - Thu Jan 5, 2012 10:19 PM EST
                    MeanGene-3334839

                    Well, keeping that in mind, have you considered that there is a difference between the military and the civilian world?

                    No sir, I have not. The military world is made up of civilians. The commander-in-chief of the military is a civilian. It is incumbent upon every American to be fit for duty should this nation need defending. If the "enemy" wins, then marijuana is going to be illegal anyway. The Taliban aren't going to let you smoke ganja if they took over the USA. Communists taking over the USA aren't going to be too accepting of the freedoms of dope smokers either.

                    Do you remember who the "Minutemen" were? They were citizens, regular joes who understood the need to defend this land. That's what the US Constitution alludes to when it mentions the "militia" in the 2nd Amendment. It means we're a citizen Army. Marijuana addicts make for lousy military members. The use of marijuana during the Vietnam War is the main reason that the USA lost to a third-world Army in abject defeat. The soldiers were too stoned to fight their way out of a paper bag, much less beat a VietCong armed with a bamboo spear.

                    Further, it seems to me that you are missing one of my fundamental points, which is that the subject of this particular article is not to condone the use of marijuana, nor to get into an in depth discussion over its effects, but whether the present policy is the most effective one to deal with the situation.

                    Of course it's the most effective policy to deal with the destruction and despair of drug abuse. It's all about prevention. Only 43% of Americans have ever tried marijuana in their lives. The majority of Americans have never touched the stuff, which is a pretty good success rate for prevention.

                    Even better, only about 22 Million Americans use marijuana in any given month, meaning that every month, some 93% of Americans will want nothing to do with the Demon Weed. Laws work, as Americans who have something to lose by being busted with Marijuana generally will not risk it. Basically only kids and unemployed hippies have nothing to lose. Most everybody else sees the consequences as hardly worth the rewards.

                    I understand your position to be that the ruined and wasted lives of those who were caught up in the criminal justice system is an acceptable price to pay and that were you to discover your mother smoking pot to alleviate her aches and pains you would disown her and call 911.

                    That's not true. I'd drag her to jail myself. I raised my mother better than that and taught her to own up to her obligations under the law. If she hasn't learned the lesson then a stint in jail will do her good.

                    I have to say that your apparent position is reminiscent of the 1930's rather than the 2000's, but you have that freedom. My position is that the cure is worse than the disease and only benefits the criminal element, ironically of whom you seem to care not a whit and yet you wish to pour monies into their coffers.

                    Where marijuana is concerned, NOTHING can be worse than the disease. Marijuana is worse than death, it is an insanity, a polluted mind which can never recover from the abyss it was plunged into. Death would be far better than the soiling of the mind and spirit by the Devil's Cane. You couldn't put a gun to my head and make me smoke pot. I'd prefer to die with my own mind and soul.

                    In addition, your position creates more criminals, and creates an adversarial relationship between an entire sector of the populace and law enforcement personnel that simply doesn't need to be there. In other words, your position creates exactly the situation that you claim to oppose.

                    That's completely untrue. A person willing to smoke marijuana in violation of the law is, by definition, a criminal anyway. The law doesn't make a man a criminal, the willingness of the crook to commit crimes is what makes a man a criminal.

                    If there were no law against rape, then wouldn't rape still be a criminal deed? Of course it would! Why? Because good men wouldn't do it, that's why. The law simply reflects good and evil, it doesn't define it. It's like the reason why the ocean is blue. The ocean is the color of water, simply reflecting the color of the sky. Similarly, the law reflects good and evil, and smoking marijuana falls into the evil category same as any other drug abuse does.

                    So, if I wanted a law abiding society which supported exactly what you suggest....I would, as I have suggested, legalize marijuana and address the other problems in a different venue.

                    If I wanted a law abiding society, I'd make rules like my favorite gun range has. Rules, like fences, make better neighbors. There is almost noplace on Earth safer than a gun range. Why? Because the rules are strictly enforced and anyone violating a rule is tossed out, that's why. Even though everybody there has guns locked and loaded, nobody is going to screw the pooch because of the consequences. When the rangemaster says "cease fire", you don't want to be the dumbass still shooting after the "cease fire" call because you're gone. No alcohol is allowed, no drugs (obviously) and no modified weapons either. The rules create order, and order is desirable. Those who cannot follow orders need to go somewhere else.

                    • 1 vote
                    #7.13 - Thu Jan 5, 2012 10:21 PM EST
                    Socrates1

                    Before we go any further...I'm assuming you don't drink, nor ingest any kind of medication, prescribed or otherwise?

                    • 3 votes
                    #7.14 - Thu Jan 5, 2012 10:29 PM EST
                    MeanGene-3334839

                    Before we go any further...I'm assuming you don't drink, nor ingest any kind of medication, prescribed or otherwise?

                    You might want to read "Science and Health" by Mary Baker Eddy, the founder of Christian Science if you're really interested in my take on the error of drugs of any kind. Humanity was created perfect, in need of no crutches.

                    • 1 vote
                    #7.15 - Thu Jan 5, 2012 10:40 PM EST
                    Becky-2100114

                    The soldiers were too stoned to fight their way out of a paper bag, much less beat a VietCong armed with a bamboo spear.

                    You need to take that back and owe those Vets an apology!!!!!! Those are your guys too and marijuana WAS NOT the reason the War was a "loss" They weren't fighting for anything. They were going in circles. It's a war that should have never begun but those men were loyal to their Country and they went because they were called. They found out when they got there that it was wrong and hung on to their patriotism but when they got home, they got treated like CRAP! And......you have the GAUL to say that. Shame on you....shame on you. I pray God works on your heart Mean Gene. Yes, an open prayer that I mean with ALL my heart.

                    And he says I shouldn't be driving.....*sticking my tongue out*

                    • 4 votes
                    #7.16 - Thu Jan 5, 2012 10:40 PM EST
                    Socrates1

                    Well, that explains things to a certain extent. No eyeglasses...no drugs or "physical" remedies of any kind?

                    On the other hand, isn't there something about love, and "we are all one...and one with God" type of thing?

                    I in no way am claiming to be an expert.

                    • 2 votes
                    #7.17 - Thu Jan 5, 2012 10:50 PM EST
                    MeanGene-3334839

                    You need to take that back and owe those Vets an apology!!!!!!

                    An apology? Okay, I'm sorry that the stoners lost the war. How's that?

                    Those are your guys too and marijuana WAS NOT the reason the War was a "loss" They weren't fighting for anything.

                    They were fighting for a simple thing. It's called "Victory". You know, where the enemy loses and you win? It's really not a complicated matter. Either you kill the enemy or he kills you. What could possibly be simpler than that?

                    And he says I shouldn't be driving.....*sticking my tongue out*

                    Driving is a lot more complicated than war, and I'm not really sure you get war. Frankly, I believe that probably half of drivers have no business being behind the wheel but that's well off-topic.

                    What would be on-topic might be General Washington crossing the Delaware. Do you know why General Washington crossed the Delaware on Christmas Night in 1776? It's because drug abuse loses wars, that's why. You see, General Washington knew that the Hessians would be partying on Christmas Day like there was no tomorrow, and he set out to make sure that for many of the Hessians, there would be no tomorrow. He crossed the Delaware, found a camp full of Hessians with a snootfull, and proceeded to kick their worthless asses even though his forces were outnumbered, outgunned, and... sober.

                    Another example would be the Opium Wars. Look up how Britain beat the crap out of China and got Hong Kong for a territory in the early 19th Century. Tell me how drugs don't lose wars and I'll take you for a trip through history. Yes, drugs lose wars, and lose countries.

                    I will not apologize for being right.

                    • 1 vote
                    #7.18 - Thu Jan 5, 2012 11:50 PM EST
                    HydeWhyte

                    I would agree that marijuana has no place behind the wheel, on the job, or with soldiers on active-duty. But that isn't what legalization is about: it is about use in private homes by private citizens, or other places where smoking is allowed and does not endanger others. Like it or not, the arbitrary criminalization of private marijuana possession or use will remain a grievance and I will continue to make sure my elected officials understand that I demand a redress of said grievance.

                    • 5 votes
                    #7.19 - Fri Jan 6, 2012 12:01 AM EST
                    MeanGene-3334839

                    Well, that explains things to a certain extent. No eyeglasses...no drugs or "physical" remedies of any kind?

                    No belief in "miracles" of any kind? If altering your mind with drugs can cure you, then the drugs aren't the cure, the mind is the cure. Depending upon crutches is a slippery slope which I choose to avoid. I would rather deal with pain than deal with addiction and pain combined.

                    On the other hand, isn't there something about love, and "we are all one...and one with God" type of thing?

                    That's where I digress from Christian Science, as that's called "Pantheism" and I don't believe that I'm God. I've got one heck of an ego, but it ain't that bad yet.

                    You speak of love. Let's go there, shall we? Love is borne by respect, and respect requires attention, doesn't it?

                    So, just how respectful can you be if you're stoned out of your mind? Respect requires being clean and sober by my reckoning.

                    You can't have respect for others if you're stoned out of your mind, and you can't have love without respect, so love and respect are mutually exclusive with drug abuse.

                    Which is why drug abuse is against the law in civilized places.

                    • 2 votes
                    #7.20 - Fri Jan 6, 2012 12:06 AM EST
                    Becky-2100114

                    George Washington grew marijuana in his garden. Look it up. Good Ol' George was just very clever and ambushed the enemy when their guard was down. Methods in warfare has evolved just like everything else because....guess what.......some of us got smarter.

                    Driving may be more difficult for you than war. That makes sense to me that it's complicated for you. You do have a hard time understanding any perspective other than your own. I started driving a double clutch on the farm at 14 so.....I know how to operate vehicles. That's neither here nor there though. Doesn't matter to you what you're killing the enemy for? Victory is the only thing you care about? No honor? Wow........I have NEVER met a human robot before. Man....you are brainwashed....severely. :(

                    Nice apology btw.....not! Sad

                    • 3 votes
                    #7.21 - Fri Jan 6, 2012 12:14 AM EST
                    CL1

                    I agree that it's a mind-altering drug, and that there's a place for everything, as Hyde suggests.

                    MeanGene, would agree to the substance being legal, but would carry caveats and restrictions for use, much the same as alcohol?

                    • 2 votes
                    #7.22 - Fri Jan 6, 2012 12:15 AM EST
                    HydeWhyte

                    You can't have respect for others if you're stoned out of your mind, and you can't have love without respect, so love and respect are mutually exclusive with drug abuse.

                    MeanGene, you often present a thoughtful and logical argument when you deal with things like facts of law, and that deserves respect; but such statements highlight things you seem know little about and your purporting them as accurate does not garner respect. Respect for others is not a result of using or not using any substance, it is a spiritual condition of the heart. Users and non-users alike are respectful or not, and their use or non-use of a substance has little to nothing to do with it. An aggressive mean person simply becomes more mean and aggressive under the influence of alcohol because it loosens their natural state of mind. And while I cannot speak for everyone, it was always my experience that marijuana, when I did smoke it, did not have that effect; but for me, neither does alcohol. Perhaps it does with certain personality types but I have always found marijuana to have the opposite effect on such people. You have never even tried marijuana to have a basis of fact to base your arguments on and you simply present what you think about it. And what you think about it is often wrong, such as in the quote from you that I presented. If you really want to be accurate on the subject, you should at least have some experience with it to base your arguments on.

                    • 4 votes
                    #7.23 - Fri Jan 6, 2012 12:27 AM EST
                    MeanGene-3334839

                    I would agree that marijuana has no place behind the wheel, on the job, or with soldiers on active-duty. But that isn't what legalization is about: it is about use in private homes by private citizens, or other places where smoking is allowed and does not endanger others.

                    Let's say that there are 110 million private homes in the USA. That's pretty close to right.

                    Now, let's say that only 30 million people in the USA live alone. That's true as well (and I'm one of those 30 million people).

                    So, that means that there are 310 Million people in the USA, living in 110 million private homes, and that only 27% of households only affect one person. 73% of private homes cannot claim to affect only one citizen, so the whole "it's my life and I'll do what I want" mantra doesn't wash.

                    Theoretically, I should be one of the perfect cases of a household affecting no one else. I live alone (have for decades now) and nobody depends on me. Except I depend on me. Somebody has to pay my bills and it sure ain't gonna be the tooth fairy.

                    No man is an island. Any man who claims to be an island is either somebody without reasoning skills or a politician.

                    • 1 vote
                    #7.24 - Fri Jan 6, 2012 12:36 AM EST
                    Becky-2100114

                    Alcohol is legal and I haven't had a drink in over a year. Before a year ago, I rarely ever drank. I have always seen the damage alcohol can do to a person and how it changes them. My best friends mom growing up was a severe alcoholic and my friend would always run over to my house. She wanted a mom like mine. We are best friends to this day and neither one of us touch the stuff anymore. Yep......we partied with her mom in high school. (I'm not saying any of us were making a good choice MG) As a child though, I haven't forgotten and so, I want to be my mother to my children and not her mother. She wants to be my mother to her children and she is! Making marijuana legal will not make everyone run out and start smoking pot regularly. Same as alcohol. I wouldn't touch either except....on occasion. lol Balance baby......balance. :)

                    • 3 votes
                    #7.25 - Fri Jan 6, 2012 12:57 AM EST
                    CL1

                    MeanGene, ....would you agree to my suggestion in 7.22?

                    • 2 votes
                    #7.26 - Fri Jan 6, 2012 1:00 AM EST
                    MeanGene-3334839

                    Becky:

                    Doesn't matter to you what you're killing the enemy for?

                    Actually, no. Survival isn't something that requires a lot of thought. Kill or die. You can't really decorate a body bag much when you're dead.

                    Let's say I go to a convenience store and a mugger approaches me in the parking lot. I'm going to pull my 9mm and end the threat one way or another. I'm not going to ask my enemy if he had a bad childhood. I'm not going to ask my attacker if he'd like a do-over. I have no interest in why my enemy wants me dead. My interest is keeping me alive, plain and simple.

                    That's why jails are great features of civilization. I don't have to deal with such crooks, most of the time. They're behind bars. When they get out, they sure as heck won't be able to live anywhere near me on what they're gonna make at a minimum wage job.

                    You have never even tried marijuana to have a basis of fact to base your arguments on and you simply present what you think about it.

                    Intelligent people can see what happens to others and say "that's a bad idea". For example, I've been in the Arizona desert near rattlesnakes, and decided against seeing if the snakes are as deadly as they say they are. Personal experience with toxic substances are a bit overrated. I'm not going to mess around with a Diamondback Rattler to see if the bite really hurts and kills. I'm fine with taking somebody else's word on that.

                    Honestly, if I told you that drinking Ethylene Glycol (aka antifreeze) were poisonous, what kind of maniac would be daft enough to disbelieve it?

                    Yet people who are told marijuana is a Schedule One drug take it anyway? What is wrong with their cognitive process? They know it's a poisonous substance, they know it's illegal, they know the consequences are severe and they do it anyway.

                    Maniacs taken off the street are a good thing. Hooray for drug laws!

                    • 1 vote
                    #7.27 - Fri Jan 6, 2012 1:06 AM EST
                    Becky-2100114

                    I wasn't talking about in the heat of battle. I was talking about motivation and the honor in standing up against the enemy and being a willing soldier to fight for what you believe is right. I thought the US were the good guys. Are you confirming to me that our government aren't the good guys and therefore reflects on our country as a whole? Well, I don't follow suit with the bad guys whether I was born here or not. I serve God first and Country second. An invasion in the home is fighting against the bad guys. Are we getting anywhere yet? Are we STILL on a completely different page?

                    • 3 votes
                    #7.28 - Fri Jan 6, 2012 1:29 AM EST
                    Becky-2100114

                    I will say, you probably did make an ideal soldier Mean Gene. You just do and don't care about the reason. You're the perfect kind of guy to stand along side an evil dictator because you'd stand by your oath regardless of right or wrong.

                    • 4 votes
                    #7.29 - Fri Jan 6, 2012 1:54 AM EST
                    HydeWhyte

                    Yet people who are told marijuana is a Schedule One drug take it anyway? What is wrong with their cognitive process? They know it's a poisonous substance, they know it's illegal, they know the consequences are severe and they do it anyway.

                    It was many years before I learned that THC was classified as a Schedule 1 drug, that I had already learned that marijuana was not only relatively safe but non-poisonous and non-addicting. The governmental idiocy of equating THC with PCP only exacerbates the free-fall of respect such decisions have on my opinion of such governmental decision making. It was part of my learning process and identification of the fact that the government sometimes issues egregious opinions that are not even remotely connected to reality.

                    • 3 votes
                    #7.30 - Fri Jan 6, 2012 2:44 AM EST
                    CL1

                    It was part of my learning process and identification of the fact that the government sometimes issues egregious opinions that are not even remotely connected to reality.

                    ..And for self-serving reasons... until they can find a way to tax whatever it is.

                    • 3 votes
                    #7.31 - Fri Jan 6, 2012 3:08 AM EST
                    Socrates1

                    Mean Gene...We have a number of problems here.

                    1. Although I realize that how one views the effects of using pot has a relationship to one's position on its legal status, I want to remind you that the subject of the article is it's legal status. It's legal status should thus be the focus of any comments.

                    2. I am not in the business of recommending anyone try it, smoke it, ingest it, grow it, or do whatever else what one might do with it. The question is whether we, as a country, are better off with it being illegal.

                    3. Your tone suggests a certain inability to look at the other side of the issue. Just so you know, I have been accused of same. Most people on the Vine seem to consider me quite the Conservative, and as such, I have plenty of concern regarding how various policies affect the whole. I see this issue as a needlessly divisive issue that can be better addressed in other ways. I mention this to suggest that our goals may be very similar and thus perhaps our discussion can be one of attempting to find the best way to meet those goals. The point is, my goal is not to get everybody off drugs, and frankly, if for no other reason than it is an impossible goal. Thus, if that is your end game, regardless of any other consequences, than obviously our goals are not the same. If, on the other hand, what you want is a, for example, law abiding society populated by people you feel you can relate to in a reasonable way, than the question becomes whether your position is the best way to do it.

                    4. It would seem that, at this point, you, and those responding to you, are simply talking past each other, which would seem somewhat unproductive for both sides. Perhaps as a result of your military training and experience you find the civilian world a lot more messy with various opinions being tolerated, people less willing to take orders, and, frankly, a lot more chaotic. This means that you cannot, or should not, think of the United States as some kind of Sparta, but rather more closely related to Athens. Again, people tell me I stand my ground all the time, but, at this point, the evidence simply does not support the majority of your claims. I don't know if it a product of your personal religious views, military service, or, perhaps, some personal bad experiences, but it would seem to me that you might wish to tell your story in a different manner, if you truly wish for others to hear you, and I will certainly attempt to do the same.

                    • 3 votes
                    #7.32 - Fri Jan 6, 2012 3:57 AM EST
                    Sally

                    I have NEVER met a human robot before. Man....you are brainwashed....severely. :(

                    Becky-2100114, please mind the Code of Honor.

                    Above all else, respect others. Address issues and arguments and refrain from making personal attacks.

                    • 2 votes
                    #7.33 - Fri Jan 6, 2012 1:25 PM EST
                    Becky-2100114

                    Sorry

                    • 1 vote
                    #7.34 - Fri Jan 6, 2012 3:21 PM EST
                    Lisafrequency

                    L

                    ove is borne by respect, and respect requires attention, doesn't it?

                    No MG love is not borne by respect love is:

                    Love suffers long and is kind; love does not envy; love does not parade itself, is not puffed up; does not behave rudely, does not seek its own, is not provoked, thinks no evil; does not rejoice in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth; bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. Love never fails. (NKJV)

                    • 4 votes
                    #7.35 - Sat Jan 7, 2012 2:05 PM EST
                    HydeWhyte

                    CL1

                    I agree that it's a mind-altering drug, and that there's a place for everything, as Hyde suggests.

                    Hi, CL1:) I hope you're enjoying the new year! It seems and answer to your question in 7.22 isn't forthcoming but I'm certain the answer would be no. My answer to the same question would be yes of course, as I'm sure you are already aware.

                    • 1 vote
                    #7.36 - Mon Jan 9, 2012 2:06 PM EST
                    Midnight Toker 4+20

                    Becky MeanGreen is an avid anti-MJ troll who spews this propaganda in most MJ topics here. You are correct on your assertion no matter how many "warnings" they give you BTW.

                    He is yet another in the long line of reich wing nuts that think everything can be solved by illegality, guns, religion and corporatism. No use wasting your time.

                    • 5 votes
                    #7.37 - Mon Jan 9, 2012 5:24 PM EST
                    Becky-2100114

                    Here's something that I'm finding a bit disturbing about the COH. I agree that slander is wrong. People like MG spew what they spew and stand behind their freedom of speech. They are supported because we don't want to stoop to their level as a group. I get that. However, those kind of people ONLY speak one language and the message we're sending by not allowing others to stand up against them is that they're right. I do believe that they honestly do think that they're the ONLY ones that are getting it so they continue. If we allow a bit of leniency in these cases.....we might make them want to go away or change. We might shame a few just enough that they see the error in their thinking. I've been reprimanded several times yet, it's clear I have support from those that recognize it's working. I personally have run off three and they don't bother me because they're afraid I'll embarrass them. I will. lol

                    • 4 votes
                    #7.38 - Tue Jan 10, 2012 9:50 AM EST
                    looselucy

                    I feel it is inflammatory when someone gets on here and spews lies, and calls a group that I am part of "murderers". His only reason for being here is to incite anger from others.

                    DNFTT

                    • 3 votes
                    #7.39 - Tue Jan 10, 2012 9:56 AM EST
                    puffin prophet

                    Honestly, if I told you that drinking Ethylene Glycol (aka antifreeze) were poisonous, what kind of maniac would be daft enough to disbelieve it?

                    From the evidence presented in this thread, I'd have to say it would probably be MeanGene.

                    "My only responsibility is to show you, it's not my job to make you see a thing... Samuel Bear Davis"

                    • 5 votes
                    #7.40 - Tue Jan 10, 2012 10:06 AM EST
                    Becky-2100114

                    The one thing a bully hates the most is to feel foolish or embarrassed. They hate to be laughed at and to feel it in their gut. The only way they will feel is if it's in their gut. They want others afraid of them. My daddy was a bully, not physically but mentally. My mother was a genius.......she kept his ars in line. lol

                    • 3 votes
                    #7.41 - Tue Jan 10, 2012 10:18 AM EST
                    Socrates1

                    There is nothing more natural than to want to strike back.

                    • 2 votes
                    #7.42 - Tue Jan 10, 2012 2:50 PM EST
                    Becky-2100114

                    Yeah.....I am told to turn the other cheek but I'm also told to rebuke with righteousness. I don't like using that saying because righteousness is often misunderstood as pompous. I think true righteousness simple looks for what is right and good in all things. It's to be done with good and pure intentions. Seeks pure love.

                    I couldn't let that sour puss go......should I feel bad? I don't feel bad, I feel it may have been good for him. Then again, I may be a total lunatic. lol Peace :)

                    • 3 votes
                    #7.43 - Wed Jan 11, 2012 12:45 AM EST
                    Socrates1

                    Some people are more difficult than others.....it's up to others to determine which category we fall into.

                    I appreciate your participation, and attempts to interpret my bon mots....:)

                    Peace out.....lol

                    • 3 votes
                    #7.44 - Wed Jan 11, 2012 12:54 AM EST
                    Becky-2100114

                    I can not resist......I'm amongst good people and for some reason Mr. T is running through my head. I never thought I'd be reflecting on Mr. T's words of wisdom.

                    "Ya' act like a fool.....ya' gonna be treated like a fool.....don't be a fool.....fool."

                    lmao

                    • 6 votes
                    #7.45 - Wed Jan 11, 2012 9:22 AM EST
                    sammy sezso

                    Becky-2100114

                    Who could ever forget the "A team"!

                    I pity the fool......!

                    :)

                    • 5 votes
                    #7.46 - Wed Jan 11, 2012 9:25 AM EST
                    Becky-2100114

                    and attempts to interpret my bon mots....:)

                    You're fun to read. When I see your post, I think, "Yay...another riddle!" You're one smart cookie.

                    I can only speak one language which is crystal clear but I understand many. lol I ain't no dummy. Peace.....FR on it's way and hope you accept. :)

                    • 3 votes
                    #7.47 - Wed Jan 11, 2012 9:34 AM EST
                    Socrates1

                    Sure

                    ps...I hope you don't regret it..

                    • 1 vote
                    #7.48 - Wed Jan 11, 2012 4:34 PM EST
                    Becky-2100114

                    Why would I regret it? You just might teach me somethin'

                    If you haven't noticed.....I'm not stuffy. lol

                    • 3 votes
                    #7.49 - Wed Jan 11, 2012 9:25 PM EST
                    Reply
                    Kyle-2710718

                    I will preface my comment by stating that I am a police officer. I have been a police officer for 26 years. I do not use marijuana, but I did when I was a teenager, many moons ago.

                    Marijuana is a PLANT. It was created by nature. It has been growing on this Earth for millions of years, and has been used by Humans for over 8,000 years. It has only been illegal since 1937, and the reasons for prohibition were dubious at best.

                    At one time in our nation's history, hemp (marijuana is in the hemp family) was used as a form of currency. You could actually pay taxes with it. It was also illegal to refuse to grow it when the government needed it. It was used to make ship's sails, clothing, rope, food, fuel, paint and many other useful things.

                    Fighting a 'war' against a beneficial plant is a futile endeavor. It is a 'war' that can't be won.

                    Instead of pouring billions of our tax dollars into a bottomless pit, legalize it and tax the sale of it. Law enforcement can then divert manpower and resources elsewhere, where they are needed the most.

                    • 9 votes
                    #8 - Wed Jan 4, 2012 9:17 PM EST
                    Socrates1

                    Agreed, and thank you for your input.

                    Along the same lines, I read somewhere that there are still a number of uses for the plant, other than smoking it, which are environmentally sound, and economically beneficial.

                    • 2 votes
                    #8.1 - Wed Jan 4, 2012 10:19 PM EST
                    MeanGene-3334839

                    I will preface my comment by stating that I am a police officer. I have been a police officer for 26 years. I do not use marijuana, but I did when I was a teenager, many moons ago.

                    Kyle, the age of initiation for marijuana use among the people who have made the error of using marijuana in their lives is about 14.4 years of age for first use. Your statement here would support the premise that marijuana targets children, adolescents, teens, basically vulnerable members of our society.

                    Legalization would NEVER allow such vulnerable members to be market targets for pot dealers. Which means you really make no point here because your teen use would still be quite illegal.

                    Marijuana is a PLANT. It was created by nature. It has been growing on this Earth for millions of years, and has been used by Humans for over 8,000 years. It has only been illegal since 1937, and the reasons for prohibition were dubious at best.

                    Smoking was practically unknown to Europeans until the discovery of tobacco in the "New World" in the 16th Century. Like the abuse of sugar and salt, tobacco came as a foreign influence. Marijuana is likewise a foreign influence and has nearly no historical use, much less 8,000 years of it.

                    At one time in our nation's history, hemp (marijuana is in the hemp family) was used as a form of currency. You could actually pay taxes with it. It was also illegal to refuse to grow it when the government needed it. It was used to make ship's sails, clothing, rope, food, fuel, paint and many other useful things.

                    Hemp is useless and pathetic. Go to the Dollar Store and you can buy a tablecloth for a buck. Hemp isn't going to be that cheap. There's no possible use for Hemp now because we don't need paper (paperless society), we don't use ships with sails, and we get our clothes made permanent press, which hemp just can't do.

                    Fighting a 'war' against a beneficial plant is a futile endeavor. It is a 'war' that can't be won.

                    Like HELL it can't be won. We're arresting 800,000 potheads per year, aren't we? You're a cop, right? I was in a jail today myself, I know a lot about law enforcement and arrest procedures and jail intake and I know about the FBI CODIS system requiring a swab be taken from every arrestee for their DNA.

                    This is a sweet, sweet victory for the War On Drugs. We're capturing the DNA of the enemy and creating a database (CODIS) so that when (not IF) these bastages commit their crimes, we'll have their names, addresses, and rap sheet all ready to go. War on Drugs = WON.

                    Instead of pouring billions of our tax dollars into a bottomless pit, legalize it and tax the sale of it. Law enforcement can then divert manpower and resources elsewhere, where they are needed the most.

                    No need to divert a damned thing. The people who use drugs and the people who commit crimes are the exact same bastages. 85% of incarcerated felons have used drugs. I don't give a crap if they're in jail for drugs or for murder, they're still the same guys who need to be taken off my streets. There's practically no such beast as a pothead who only committed the one crime of marijuana. They did more than that to get the attentions of the constabulary.

                    • 1 vote
                    #8.2 - Wed Jan 4, 2012 10:42 PM EST
                    Uthaclena

                    MeanGene-3334839

                    No need to divert a damned thing. The people who use drugs and the people who commit crimes are the exact same bastages. 85% of incarcerated felons have used drugs. I don't give a crap if they're in jail for drugs or for murder, they're still the same guys who need to be taken off my streets. There's practically no such beast as a pothead who only committed the one crime of marijuana. They did more than that to get the attentions of the constabulary.

                    Sorry, I have to call call BS on that rant. Almost every drug addict or criminal that I know started out on tobacco from their Dad's pack in the living room, or on liquor from their liquor cabinet. I know plenty of people who got into legal trouble for the sole crime of getting caught toking in the wrong place at the wrong time, like down by the riverfront park, horrors!

                    I suspect that the Cop knows WAY more than you do about this issue, and most police who I know feel exactly the same way - they'd prefer to deal with real criminal issues, not the stoners.

                    • 5 votes
                    #8.3 - Wed Jan 4, 2012 11:09 PM EST
                    Socrates1

                    I'd have to say there is some underlying problem there gene.

                    I reject virtually assertion you make and ask that you provide some evidence to support your statements.

                    I'm also a bit concerned about your complete lack of concern regarding individual freedoms.

                    • 5 votes
                    #8.4 - Wed Jan 4, 2012 11:17 PM EST
                    Kyle-2710718

                    Uthaclena...

                    It does no good to argue with MG. All he does is post useless rants and drivel about the EVILS OF THE DEVIL'S WEED, and all of that garbage straight from propaganda sources like Reefer Madness

                    I put him on ignore ages ago & don't even bother to peek at anything he says anymore.

                    DNFTT

                    • 8 votes
                    #8.5 - Wed Jan 4, 2012 11:23 PM EST
                    Kyle-2710718

                    I suspect that the Cop knows WAY more than you do about this issue, and most police who I know feel exactly the same way - they'd prefer to deal with real criminal issues, not the stoners.

                    In my 26 years of law enforcement, I have lost count of how many belligerent drunks, skitzers, and crackheads I have had to fight, but I can tell you exactly how many potheads... ZERO.

                    When it comes to weed, I can't legally let them keep it, so I have to confiscate it, but those damn baggies keep tearing, and the wind blows away all my evidence... Every damned time!

                    Dang, cheap old plastic bags! ;-)

                    • 10 votes
                    #8.6 - Wed Jan 4, 2012 11:41 PM EST
                    MeanGene-3334839

                    In my 26 years of law enforcement, I have lost count of how many belligerent drunks, skitzers, and crackheads I have had to fight, but I can tell you exactly how many potheads... ZERO.

                    Pot is commonly a drug-in-combination, often laced with PCP or used with alcohol. When Al Gore III got busted with pot in his Prius after driving over 100 MPH, it wasn't just pot they found... he had a rolling pharmacy. He had valium, vicodin, xanax and adderall to boot.

                    Marijuana is a gateway drug. It lowers inhibitions and makes the concept of trying other mind-altering drugs seem like less of a bad idea. That's why the typical pothead has tried many other drugs and is probably on many other drugs. If a drunk driver has smoked pot, the cops don't care about the pot... they've already got their bust for the booze so the pot isn't counted. That's why marijuana is grossly underestimated in law enforcement records.

                    When it comes to weed, I can't legally let them keep it, so I have to confiscate it, but those damn baggies keep tearing, and the wind blows away all my evidence... Every damned time!

                    That's a dereliction of duty which endangers public safety because marijuana users are responsible for 85% of all crimes which happen in our society today. 85% of convicts currently incarcerated have used marijuana. If they had been taken off the streets for good when they used marijuana then the prisons would have 85% fewer prisoners and the streets would have 85% less crime.

                    Nearly all crime and every bad thing which happens in this world can be laid at the feet of potheads. They're the source of all things evil, past, present and future. They are the most despicable beings to ever walk this Earth.

                    • 1 vote
                    #8.7 - Thu Jan 5, 2012 6:48 AM EST
                    sky dog

                    That's a dereliction of duty which endangers public safety because marijuana users are responsible for 85% of all crimes which happen in our society today. 85% of convicts currently incarcerated have used marijuana. If they had been taken off the streets for good when they used marijuana then the prisons would have 85% fewer prisoners and the streets would have 85% less crime.

                    MeanGene, I've never seen statistics so abused before. Let's see, if we arrest everyone who has used marijuana, so as to prevent any crimes they may commit, then the prison population will decrease by 85%?? Or are you suggesting they just be killed, so as to not stress our struggling private prison system? How about shooting for 100% reduction in crime by jailing everyone?

                    Nearly all crime and every bad thing which happens in this world can be laid at the feet of potheads. They're the source of all things evil, past, present and future. They are the most despicable beings to ever walk this Earth.

                    It never ceases to amuse.

                    • 4 votes
                    #8.8 - Thu Jan 5, 2012 7:15 AM EST
                    MeanGene-3334839

                    MeanGene, I've never seen statistics so abused before. Let's see, if we arrest everyone who has used marijuana, so as to prevent any crimes they may commit, then the prison population will decrease by 85%?? Or are you suggesting they just be killed, so as to not stress our struggling private prison system? How about shooting for 100% reduction in crime by jailing everyone?

                    Look at a Wal*Mart parking lot. Not in the store... the parking lot. If you count the cameras in the parking lot, you will surely find no fewer than 12 cameras in the parking lot. Why??? It's not for loss prevention or shoplifting. There's no shoplifting in the parking lot. There's nothing in the parking lot for anybody to shoplift, so then why are the cameras there?

                    It to prevent crime, and criminal activities in the parking lot. You see, crime in parking lots (drug dealing, mugging, etc.) deters customers from using the parking lot, so the cameras are there to ensure the parking lot is used lawfully. The reason you don't see drug dealing and mugging being popular parking lot activities is because the criminals see the cameras (they're obvious for that reason) and decide that they're risking being caught and prosecuted should they use that venue to further their criminal pursuits.

                    If all drug use were detected and punished (as it should be) then no one would dare to use any illegal drug and that would lead to the benefit of a Zero Tolerance Policy, which would be Zero Use.

                    I'd put instant urinalysis units in public restrooms to nail dopers. I'd put spectrographic drug detecting equipment in colleges and high schools to make it impossible to get a drug into a school environment. I'd make it impossible to get away with this crime, and when the crime is impossible to get away with, nobody will commit it.

                    • 1 vote
                    #8.9 - Thu Jan 5, 2012 7:44 AM EST
                    sky dog

                    police state. I don't think anything else need be said about those suggestions.

                    • 4 votes
                    #8.10 - Thu Jan 5, 2012 7:55 AM EST
                    Becky-2100114

                    Dang, cheap old plastic bags! ;-)

                    Kyle......you rock. You might scare MeanGene a bit but I'm glad to know there are level headed guys like you out there that know what's important and what isn't. :)

                    • 5 votes
                    #8.11 - Thu Jan 5, 2012 10:09 AM EST
                    Socrates1

                    It took me awhile to catch on to which side Mean Gene is really on.

                    • 3 votes
                    #8.12 - Thu Jan 5, 2012 11:44 AM EST
                    Kyle-2710718

                    Kyle......you rock. You might scare MeanGene a bit but I'm glad to know there are level headed guys like you out there that know what's important and what isn't. :)

                    Thank you for the kind words Becky! :-)

                    sky dog

                    That's a dereliction of duty which endangers public safety

                    Sky, I know you were quoting MG, but I have him on ignore and don't bother opening his posts, so I'm borrowing a snip of your quote. :-)

                    It is not dereliction of duty, I still take "appropriate law enforcement actions".

                    In Texas law, most statutes state that a peace officer MAY arrest, and some statutes specify that an officer SHALL arrest. This offense does NOT fall into the 'shall arrest' category.

                    Possession of marijuana (under 2 oz.) is a Class B Misdemeanor, peace officers MAY arrest, and we also have the option of writing a ticket for it. All tickets are written at the discretion of the officer.

                    1. I have confiscated their weed, thus depriving them of it. (appropriate law enforcement action)

                    2. I have destroyed, or otherwise rendered their weed unusable. (discretionary law enforcement action)

                    3. Since their weed has been destroyed, I no longer have evidence with which to make a charge, but they do receive a verbal warning. (appropriate law enforcement action)

                    4. They are out the money that they paid for their weed, but are also grateful that I 'cut them a break' by not arresting them. (Punitive, but not draconian)

                    5. My actions do not require adding another body to an already crowded jail, adding another name to an already full court docket, or require overtime to testify in a court of law. A reasonable and prudent person would argue that my actions (and the actions of many of my fellow officers) actually save our citizens many tax dollars.

                    6. We are then free to answer the next call in a timely manner, instead of making our citizens wait forever for a police response, because we are busy hassling / arresting someone over a plant that can be grown almost anywhere.

                    Pot is a low priority, and its prohibition should be repealed.

                    • 5 votes
                    #8.13 - Thu Jan 5, 2012 6:40 PM EST
                    Tex-988483

                    MeanGene:

                    Stop it, Pard. You're killin' me. I swear to God I have laughed so hard it's brought me to tears.

                    It is like my own personal time machine of Hellaciously Bizarre Experience. It's 1970. I'm in the living room of my great uncle and aunt's in Wartrace, Tn. having motored up to check out some custom guitars. The room is dark and more or less lit by the light of a black and white TV with a two forked antenna wrapped in tin foil perched upon the top. My kin are sitting on their sofa hunched behind TV Trays with, no jive, a seriously bad painting of an Antebellum Manse complete with happy "darkies" cavorting in the yard on the face of each. Colored Aluminum glasses with raised relief quail on the sides filled with sweet tea and sweating on the outside sit by those TV suppers that came in little tin plates with separate areas for all the epicurean delights within. In the flickering light of the TV it is getting downright surreal. Bo Dean and Aunt (pronounced Aint) Lurlean are beginning to look like gargoyles or diminutive minions of Beezelbubbah. They exude an aroma of camphor, cigar, rose water and fried chicken.

                    I was raised up to respect my elders, especially blood kin, and I am doing my best. I'm no Maming and yes Sirring to beat the band all the while Uncle Bo is delivering an incredible diatribe and lecture directed most pointedly at me and, I am assuming, my entire generation. Aunt Lur is staring at me from behind a hawk like nose eyes burning with some inner evangelical fire and righteous rage. Ever see the old '22 film Nosferatu? I'm starting to believe I am facing the Inquisition but the Spanish Inquisitor has turned into Mr and Mrs Nosferatu. They are looking so squirrelly I am beginning to wonder if both of them have dropped Acid. I know for a fact I haven't.....I look at the wall above them at the Sofa sized portrait of Richard Milhous Nixon and begin to wonder.....

                    It's shaking down kind of like this:

                    "Why do you wanna look like a dang girl? Why don't you cut your dang hair?"

                    "Well, sir, I......"

                    "And what are you thinking riding up here on that goddam motorsickle?"

                    "Yessire, I'm sor..."

                    "What are you in one of them gangs?"

                    "Nawsir, I'm just a rider...."

                    "And them goddam tattoos. Are you one of them devil worshiping hippies?"

                    At which Aunt Lur begins to "Tsk. Tsk. Tsk." and say "No good can come of this." She says this in such a solemn and tragic manner I want to get up walk over, pat her on the head and say, "Now. Now Aunt Lur. Everything's gonna be alright".

                    And so on and so forth and such until the Drug Lecture arrives. This is where it gets to be a hoot. Give or take and minus all the facts, figures and stats he said pretty dang much the same shyte you have here.

                    Thanks Man. Thumbs up. You rule. I give up. I'm gonna change my ways. I'm finally gonna cut my hair, get me a three piece suit from the Goodwill and start going to the Happy Valley Church of the Luminous Catfish and proselytize to the rest of the Goobers. I swear to God. I'll be good. I'll tell my daughters to just ignore my radical politics and Godless Communist Bastard Ways. I was wrong. I am personally responsible for dissolving the moral glue that holds our society together. I'll eschew Emotional Morphine and refrain reading any tome that in any way deviates from the mainstream American Norm. I'm gonna burn my underground comic collection. I am going to voluntarily turn in my drivers license. I'm going to load my gun safe and all my implements of destruction and take em down the bottom of the mountain into the holler and turn them into Sheriff Bobby. I renounce my wicked ways and take full and exclusive responsibility for the ruination of the entire United States of America.

                    Too much my man. Too much. Things change yet they stay the same....

                    However,

                    Best atcha despite our obvious difference, affiliation or afflictions...

                    Rock on Brother.

                    Cha togar m'fhearg gun dioladh

                    • 6 votes
                    #8.14 - Fri Jan 6, 2012 1:18 AM EST
                    Becky-2100114

                    Awesome Tex.......pure awesomeness lol :)

                    • 4 votes
                    #8.15 - Fri Jan 6, 2012 1:37 AM EST
                    Kyle-2710718

                    LOL!

                    You GO Tex! :-)

                    • 4 votes
                    #8.16 - Fri Jan 6, 2012 9:07 AM EST
                    Tex-988483

                    Well, dangnation. Thank y'all kindly.....

                    • 4 votes
                    #8.17 - Fri Jan 6, 2012 1:37 PM EST
                    Reply
                    crazyrooster1946

                    Okay, let's legalize it, tax it and use the money to eliminate the national debt! I would put one little fly in the honey, make it illegal for a member of congress to use it!

                    • 3 votes
                    Reply#9 - Wed Jan 4, 2012 9:40 PM EST
                    MeanGene-3334839

                    You can't tax marijuana, and here's the reason why:

                    Potheads are quite used to being lawbreakers. Evading a tax on a weed would simply be another law which they'd break, and the government wouldn't see a dime from such lawless cretins. After all, they'd just grow their own because it grows like a weed (it actually IS a weed, a pestilence and a curse). These potheads aren't going to pay a 600% tax rate like smokers of tobacco do. They're not going to pay any tax rate at all. They're just going to throw seeds into their back yard and have at tax-free stonage anytime they want.

                    There is no money to be had from potheads. The typical pothead is a welfare case, doesn't have a good job (if he even has a job), has no money to spare for taxes, and generally has to resort to thieving and fraud to get his fix of the Devil's Cane.

                    • 1 vote
                    #9.1 - Thu Jan 5, 2012 6:59 AM EST
                    UthaclenaExpand Comment Comment collapsed by the community

                    MeanGene-3334839

                    Several people have been pointing our that you are a troll; I haven't read any of your comments about other subjects in other threads, but it is clear that you are at the very least foaming-at-the-mouth ignorant.

                    • 4 votes
                    #9.2 - Thu Jan 5, 2012 8:54 AM EST
                    Becky-2100114

                    You tax the stores and distributors. Those who want to commercialize their product would have to follow regulations and therefore pay tax. People in CO are growing and paying taxes on their product. It's a plant and people could grow their own if they preferred for personal consumption just like if they baked they're own cake. I paid taxes on that chocolate cake I made when I purchased the ingredients but I wasn't "regulated" by the state as to the "quality" of my cake so anyone choosing to consume it in my household is eating at their own risk. bhahahaha

                    • 4 votes
                    #9.3 - Thu Jan 5, 2012 9:59 AM EST
                    Sally

                    but it is clear that you are at the very least foaming-at-the-mouth ignorant.

                    Uthaclena, you are suspended for a day for violating rule # 1 of the Code of Honor.

                    Above all else, respect others. Address issues and arguments and refrain from making personal attacks.

                    • 4 votes
                    #9.4 - Thu Jan 5, 2012 1:18 PM EST
                    tony1234

                    There is no money to be had from potheads. The typical pothead is a welfare case, doesn't have a good job (if he even has a job), has no money to spare for taxes, and generally has to resort to thieving and fraud to get his fix of the Devil's Cane.

                    Sally, just to clarify the rules, calling people posting in this article who are pro-MJ a "potheads", "welfare case" "doesn't have a good job", "has no money to spare for taxes" is not a CoH violation? Can I post similar opposing insults as long as they are general to a class of people like let's say "anti-potheads"?

                    example:

                    There is no money to be had from anti-potheads. The typical anti-potuser is a welfare case, doesn't have a good job (if he even has a job), has no money to spare for taxes, and generally has to resort to thieving and fraud to get his fix of God's Cane.

                    • 4 votes
                    #9.5 - Thu Jan 5, 2012 1:46 PM EST
                    Socrates1

                    I understand your question and I also understand the frustration on the part of some of the members participating here.

                    On the other hand, I may have allowed my bias to show, and, without reading the comment, I really can't comment on the particulars.

                    I would ask that Mean Gene attempt to make relevant posts without the inflammatory language, and in return ask others to respond in a respectful manner.

                    My apologizes if I erred on the side of "free speech" and did not step in when the situation called for it.

                    • 4 votes
                    #9.6 - Thu Jan 5, 2012 1:54 PM EST
                    tony1234

                    Thank you for your reply.

                    • 2 votes
                    #9.7 - Thu Jan 5, 2012 2:00 PM EST
                    lovemyplanet-400560

                    it actually IS a weed, a pestilence and a curse

                    Actually, it is a panacea.

                    Granny Storm Crow's List

                    • 1 vote
                    #9.8 - Fri Jan 6, 2012 4:42 AM EST
                    Reply
                    Polka14

                    Prohibition is evil and it should be abolished. Those that are in favor of freedoms would agree with me. The only person in government that would fight for freedom would be Ron Paul.

                    • 8 votes
                    Reply#10 - Wed Jan 4, 2012 10:00 PM EST
                    Uthaclena

                    Polka14

                    The only person in government that would fight for freedom would be Ron Paul.

                    Come on, you're getting a little evangelical about Paul; my own Congressman supports legalization and maximizing civil liberties, and he's a progressive Democrat.

                    • 2 votes
                    #10.1 - Wed Jan 4, 2012 11:13 PM EST
                    Polka14

                    my own Congressman supports legalization and maximizing civil liberties, and he's a progressive Democrat.

                    Perhaps he should become a libertarian. Most Democrats support anti-freedom agendas.

                    In regards to Paul, he needs to win and become our next President. He is the only Presidential candidate that will promote the restoration of freedoms and would end the "war on drugs".

                    • 4 votes
                    #10.2 - Wed Jan 4, 2012 11:30 PM EST
                    Uthaclena

                    Polka14

                    In regards to Paul, he needs to win and become our next President.

                    Just a quick aside so as not to derail Socrates' article; but where is the "Ron Paul Caucus" in Congress? There's a Progressive Democratic Caucus; a Tea Party Caucus, for Grid's sake!! Who are Ron's allies that will help President Paul get his legislation passed??

                    If you'd like to write an article about that, I'd be happy to read your perspective.

                    • 3 votes
                    #10.3 - Wed Jan 4, 2012 11:36 PM EST
                    Polka14

                    Just a quick aside so as not to derail Socrates' article; but where is the "Ron Paul Caucus" in Congress?

                    There is no Libertarian Caucus in Congress? If not then we certainly need one and I will consider writing that article about it.

                      #10.4 - Wed Jan 4, 2012 11:43 PM EST
                      MeanGene-3334839

                      The President has no power to end the "War On Drugs".

                      The UN Single Convention on Narcotics of 1961 is a treaty with over 150 signatory nations. The USA is, of course, one of those nations. For the USA to legalize marijuana for recreational use would be a violation of that treaty, and the President has no authority to violate a signed and ratified treaty.

                      The War on Drugs holds as much authority as the Geneva Conventions, because it is an international treaty. Congress hasn't any authority to break the treaty and neither does the President.

                      If they're stupid enough to try, a simple Supreme Court Challenge against the violation of the treaty under the Supremacy Clause of the US Constitution should put the upstarts back in their rightful places and restore the prohibition of the Demon Weed.

                      Legalization is futile. It will never happen and there are people like me who will make sure that it never happens. The die has been cast and the prohibition of marijuana is irreversable. It has been codified as eternal law.

                      • 1 vote
                      #10.5 - Thu Jan 5, 2012 7:21 AM EST
                      sky dog

                      Gene, really.

                      You've already lost the war. Even illegally, use is condoned. It's an unlucky few, or big suppliers, that still get jailed. Granted, the hassle factor of arrest and hearing is still present, but marijuana has already entered a 'prohibitionist's era' where the law no longer has its intended effect. The system is broken, and maintaining the same legal structure will continue to yield the same result.

                      The laws will change. Eventually. And probably not in a manner that will be to your liking.

                      • 8 votes
                      #10.6 - Thu Jan 5, 2012 7:31 AM EST
                      MeanGene-3334839

                      Gene, really.

                      You've already lost the war. Even illegally, use is condoned. It's an unlucky few, or big suppliers, that still get jailed.

                      That's not true. 800,000 marijuana arrests are made each year and only 20 Million Americans smoke marijuana each year. The arrest rate for potheads is about 4%. People play the lottery for a lot lower odds than that. Basically, 1 in 25 potheads get cuffed and stuffed each year.

                      Granted, the hassle factor of arrest and hearing is still present, but marijuana has already entered a 'prohibitionist's era' where the law no longer has its intended effect.

                      "Hassle factor?" You get busted for marijuana and your ass is unemployed for life. You live in the information age, and any REAL job is going to run a background check which will certainly include your rap sheet and if you've got one for drugs while applying for a job which doesn't tolerate drugs (say, Wal*Mart) then you're not getting that job.

                      The sentence isn't just arrest and a hearing. You pay for that record for the rest of your born days, as well you should when you commit a crime so vile as to put Poisonous drugs on my streets.

                      The system is broken, and maintaining the same legal structure will continue to yield the same result.

                      The system is getting better all the time. YouTube is catching bad parents putting bongs in the mouths of their babies. Facebook is an employer's background check dream come true. Google means that judges can't seal records anymore and that convictions live on forever despite what a pathetic powerless liberal judge tries to do about it.

                      We are winning the war on drugs. The good guys always win, and the dopers are not the good guys.

                      The laws will change. Eventually. And probably not in a manner that will be to your liking.

                      No, the laws will not change. Fools have been trying to change the laws since the "Sex, Drugs and Rock 'n Roll" 1960's, and have they changed? Nope. 50 years of failure to change will turn into a century of failure to change.

                      Fortunately, I like the law just like it is. Unfortunately for you, that law will only get tighter and easier to enforce.

                      The war on drugs will be won. It will be a grand victory, one to celebrate, and the losers won't even have their damned Demon Weed to console themselves with.

                      • 1 vote
                      #10.7 - Thu Jan 5, 2012 8:03 AM EST
                      silentsmile

                      Trolls have feeling too so to call someone a troll is mean-spirited and cruel. Gee whiz there are a bunch of trolls running for president right now so have a heart and "Mean" is not a troll just somewhat out there, but we all are. "Mean", patting you on the head, it will be alright, just take your meds, get plently of sleep and watch out, at the soup kitchen, it is laced with lib oriented food that will make you, like us who vote with reason, not by irregular bowel movements. Sorry having a thing with bowel movements at the moment, better go to my bible to get some relief and yes even though I am a agnostic, I cover all the bases. Peace

                      • 3 votes
                      #10.8 - Thu Jan 5, 2012 10:24 AM EST
                      Polka14

                      That's not true. 800,000 marijuana arrests are made each year and only 20 Million Americans smoke marijuana each year. The arrest rate for potheads is about 4%. People play the lottery for a lot lower odds than that. Basically, 1 in 25 potheads get cuffed and stuffed each year.

                      All of those arrests are unjust. All drugs should be legalized without exception. All drug laws are extremely anti-freedom in nature and these laws only support violence in our nation with the underground drug market. Prohibition of alcohol only lead to violence. The current drug war only aids the drug cartel terrorists in Mexico and in other nations.

                      The sentence isn't just arrest and a hearing. You pay for that record for the rest of your born days, as well you should when you commit a crime so vile as to put Poisonous drugs on my streets.

                      And that is unjust too. Using drugs should be a non-crime and many people that were not criminals become dangerous criminals while in prison and many lives are ruined as a result of this drug war. You have an anti-drug agenda but our freedoms and justice should be considered to be more important then your agenda.

                      We are winning the war on drugs. The good guys always win, and the dopers are not the good guys.

                      No. Those people that promote anti-freedom laws to punish people that have done nothing wrong are not "good guys". They are oppressors and oppressors always lose.

                      • 8 votes
                      #10.9 - Thu Jan 5, 2012 12:19 PM EST
                      Kyle-2710718

                      Well said Polka.

                      • 3 votes
                      #10.10 - Thu Jan 5, 2012 2:47 PM EST
                      LMSLMS

                      We are winning the war on drugs. The good guys always win, and the dopers are not the good guys.

                      That is an INSANE statement to make... MeanGene apparently does not live in reality (or perhaps he's high?)

                      • 6 votes
                      #10.11 - Thu Jan 5, 2012 4:46 PM EST
                      Becky-2100114

                      Dopers are the nicest people around!!!!! "It's all good man" :) They're super funny too and always laughing. Such hatred you show to the dopers Meanie Genie.........and they're still not biting back very hard. Actually, I think those who support legalization but AREN'T dopers (anymore) are the ones who are snapping back at you. Look around you.....pleeeeeez. Dopers wouldn't harm a fly. Someone on crack?.... now that's a different story to tell. :(

                      • 4 votes
                      #10.12 - Thu Jan 5, 2012 5:25 PM EST
                      Kyle-2710718

                      You should all watch this video.

                      Video - The Power of Raw Cannabis

                      And check out this article.

                      A President Alone Can End the Federal Drug War

                      • 3 votes
                      #10.13 - Thu Jan 5, 2012 10:37 PM EST
                      HydeWhyte

                      "Hassle factor?" You get busted for marijuana and your ass is unemployed for life. You live in the information age, and any REAL job is going to run a background check which will certainly include your rap sheet and if you've got one for drugs while applying for a job which doesn't tolerate drugs (say, Wal*Mart) then you're not getting that job.

                      Wrong. I work for a municipality with all of the standard zero-tolerance policies, standard insurance eligibility clauses, random and for-cause drug-testing, etc, etc, yet we still hire employees with drug convictions on their record. Had a kid not long ago that started using speed so much that people started noticing. He decided it wasn't the best route for him so he fessed-up to his supervisors and the human-resources dept, and they allowed him to avail himself of the city's policy that allows such employees to go into a rehab program. He stopped using, continues to pass his periodic random tests, and still works for the city. It's a pretty common set of policies with many employers all over America.

                      • 5 votes
                      #10.14 - Mon Jan 9, 2012 2:18 PM EST
                      Reply
                      Tex-988483

                      I'll be back on this one.

                      • 1 vote
                      Reply#11 - Wed Jan 4, 2012 10:55 PM EST
                      yeagerdog

                      Legalization would only bring corporate America into the mix and then they would then be in control. Who knows what control they would then exhibit over the populous.

                        Reply#12 - Wed Jan 4, 2012 10:57 PM EST
                        silentsmile

                        No, people would starting growing their own and there is no way that the government could control that. Peace

                        • 1 vote
                        #12.1 - Thu Jan 5, 2012 10:28 AM EST
                        Lisafrequency

                        There are a lot of people who would not row it as well. You can make your on beer too but how many people do you know who drink it that make their own?

                        • 2 votes
                        #12.2 - Thu Jan 5, 2012 2:39 PM EST
                        Kyle-2710718

                        I only know of 1 friend of mine that makes his own beer, & it ain't bad.

                        • 3 votes
                        #12.3 - Thu Jan 5, 2012 2:50 PM EST
                        Lisafrequency

                        there are a lot o people who would not want to grow

                        • 3 votes
                        #12.4 - Thu Jan 5, 2012 3:21 PM EST
                        Becky-2100114

                        There are a lot of people who would want medical grade and not "ditch" weed. To produce medical grade is a sizable investment. Most people would want it to be regulated so they don't get any kind of bugs or chemicals. Plus, it's a lot of work too. Most people would have their own profession and wouldn't have the time needed either to produce a good product. It's a lot of work and the nice "dopers" (as someone likes to refer to them as) would be happy to take on the task to do it right and professionally. Heck, they might even throw in some yummy cookies in your bag. They're already doing it and it's working. I think Colorado Springs and Boulder, CO are wonderful communities. That says something in itself. If anyone doesn't believe me, I recommend visiting and see for yourself how other people treat you when you simply pass them in the street.

                        • 4 votes
                        #12.5 - Thu Jan 5, 2012 5:35 PM EST
                        Reply
                        yeagerdog

                        MeanGean; we don't need paper (paperless society),

                        What do you propose to wipe your backside with?

                        • 1 vote
                        Reply#13 - Wed Jan 4, 2012 11:00 PM EST
                        MeanGene-3334839

                        It's called a bidet. People from civilized countries know what one is.

                        • 2 votes
                        #13.1 - Thu Jan 5, 2012 6:12 AM EST
                        silentsmile

                        Cant help it, but "Mean" do you use a bidet, just curious?

                        • 1 vote
                        #13.2 - Thu Jan 5, 2012 10:30 AM EST
                        silentsmile

                        Also look up on line the organization called LEAP, it is ex law enforcement personal who support legalization, just my final note on this subject, that is for today. By the way I have an incurable disease and Pot helps me with eating and nausea. Without pot from a personal outlook, I would only weigh less then 90 pounds and that is the truth. Gee whiz if I take off my clothing, stick my tongue out I look like a giant zipper so thats my life.

                        • 6 votes
                        #13.3 - Thu Jan 5, 2012 10:40 AM EST
                        silentsmile

                        On a roll forgive me, but zippers have feelings too. ; )

                        • 1 vote
                        #13.4 - Thu Jan 5, 2012 10:41 AM EST
                        Midnight Toker 4+20Deleted
                        Socrates1

                        Personal...I know, there's always a fine line, but I appreciate your understanding.

                        Consider it a way of warning everyone to think before they post.

                        • 1 vote
                        #13.6 - Mon Jan 9, 2012 9:39 PM EST
                        Reply
                        Grisham

                        Wow. Soc, I agree with you on this one too. I don't personally use pot, but the war on drugs is a huge drain on taxpayer money, police time and court time. Good article, man.

                        • 12 votes
                        Reply#14 - Thu Jan 5, 2012 12:29 AM EST
                        silentsmile

                        I agree "Grisham" and by the way you also write some very insightful articles. Peace

                        • 2 votes
                        #14.1 - Thu Jan 5, 2012 10:32 AM EST
                        Socrates1

                        Hmm...who knows how many issues we might agree on? Eh? :)

                        • 2 votes
                        #14.2 - Thu Jan 5, 2012 11:52 AM EST
                        Grisham

                        Thanks, Smile. :)

                        You're right, Soc. We probably agree on other things. Maybe now you can say I'm from the Right.

                        • 1 vote
                        #14.3 - Thu Jan 5, 2012 12:42 PM EST
                        Socrates1

                        Baby steps..Grisham...Baby steps...

                        • 1 vote
                        #14.4 - Thu Jan 5, 2012 1:33 PM EST
                        sky dog

                        TO WHOEVER STOLE SOCRATES1......

                        -

                        -

                        thanks for the replacement.

                        • 1 vote
                        #14.5 - Thu Jan 5, 2012 6:25 PM EST
                        Socrates1

                        Thanks, but I'm doomed to follow the truth wherever it may take me. I consider it to be pragmatic. Unfortunately it means I can never be a member of the group, as truth can be fickle that way (sob, sob).....

                        Anyway, I'm glad we found a subject on which we can agree, perhaps it will provide a more amicable frame of reference for our next discussion.

                        • 2 votes
                        #14.6 - Thu Jan 5, 2012 8:23 PM EST
                        Reply
                        Shub Tnediserp Remrof

                        The feds do sell pot to select citizens in select states legalize it. It isn't up the the federal government to decide weather it should be legalized it depends on the state. If every state said yes you'd be seeing it sold every where except the streets.

                        • 2 votes
                        Reply#15 - Thu Jan 5, 2012 10:14 AM EST
                        Lisafrequency

                        I want to stick up or MeanGene for a minute. He comes and debates on most to the marijuana articles. he presents an extreme view on pot to most of the posters. What I want to know is do you want to convince someone like MG or do you want to keep the tension going?

                        I do know about you but I have never been convinced away from an idea that I feel passionately about by someone that is calling me names. You have to understand MG he is of course being very provocative but this is the mentality we who want it legal are up against. If you can convince MG you will be able to convince anyone and my challenge to all you marijuana advocates is to convince him.

                        • 2 votes
                        #16 - Thu Jan 5, 2012 3:39 PM EST
                        sky dog

                        Lisa, I was going to explain in detail why those of us that still respond to the person in question do it in the manner we do, but it might be seen as deprecatory. Suffice it to say, we have tried gentler methods.

                        But experience is the best teacher. Give it a go, and get back with us in a couple of days.

                        Presence of attitudes such as his has convinced me that there are some people you just don't want to try to convince. There will always be a segment of the population that demonizes ethnobotanical inebriants with the full fervor of the blessed. In the end, they will have no real impact on the rational discussion of the subject.

                        • 5 votes
                        #16.1 - Thu Jan 5, 2012 3:50 PM EST
                        Socrates1

                        Thank you for your comment. And, per my comment above, I agree to a certain extent. After further consideration, I'll leave it at that.

                        • 2 votes
                        #16.2 - Thu Jan 5, 2012 3:51 PM EST
                        LMSLMS

                        sky dog has it exactly right... I don't think for one second that it is people like MeanGene that, in the end, will be the folks we need to convince. MeanGene is a narrow minded, rigid thinker who, as far as I can tell, isn't going to be convinced away from his argument no matter what. If legalization depends on convincing people like that then we should give up now (thankfully most people are much more reasonable and logical than MeanGene).

                        • 3 votes
                        #16.3 - Thu Jan 5, 2012 4:59 PM EST
                        MeanGene-3334839

                        I want to stick up or MeanGene for a minute. He comes and debates on most to the marijuana articles. he presents an extreme view on pot to most of the posters. What I want to know is do you want to convince someone like MG or do you want to keep the tension going?

                        Lisa,

                        How exactly is it that agreeing with the law is an "extreme view"? My view is that the laws against marijuana since 1905 (El Paso, TX passed the first law against pot in 1905) are fair and reasonable and the way things ought to be. The legal system agrees with my take on the prohibition of the Devil's Cane, and not with the pro-legalization view. It's topsy-turvy to call repealing some 100+ years of laws against the Demon Weed "extreme". If anyone here has a non-extremist view, it would be me.

                        It doesn't matter what you convince me of, because I'm still going to win and it's still going to be illegal for far into the foreseeable future. Here's the reason why:

                        Let's take a scenario where Obama wins the 2012 election. Obama has already said that he is against the legalization of marijuana. That means marijuana will not be legal for at least another year, and then another four years of Obama's second term. This argument is DEAD ON ARRIVAL until at least the year 2017 if Obama wins in November.

                        Let's take a scenario where Obama loses the 2012 election. No Republican on the planet is going to sign legislation to legalize wacky tobacky (note: Ron Paul is a Libertarian, not a Republican and has no chance at the nomination) so again, legalization has no possibility of happening until 2017 if Republicans win in November.

                        Let's take a scenario with a long shot and say that Ron Paul wins the 2012 election. He's got no coalition among Congressional Republicans and can't get them to go along with any kind of legalization bill. Democrats would never go along with Ron Paul because they couldn't brook a 'Republican' getting any kind of credit. They'd torpedo him to make sure that Hillary Clinton's run in 2016 is successful and that Ron Paul is a one-termer. So, again, legalization has no possibility of happening until 2017 even if a Libertarian Lunatic like Ron Paul wins.

                        There is no possible way that legalization happens in this decade. Convincing people doesn't matter at all. The will of the people never matters in the USA anyway, if it did then we wouldn't be getting ready to throw paperwork to the IRS come April 15th. Nobody actually likes the IRS but they're going to be around forever anyhow no matter what the voters say.

                        • 1 vote
                        #16.4 - Thu Jan 5, 2012 8:57 PM EST
                        Socrates1

                        Not to speak for another member...but I don't think that your comment addressed the meaning of hers.

                        Your statements are almost a characature of what many think of when they think of someone against legalization. They are filled with hyperbole and seem to indicate an unwillingness to even listen to another side.

                        • 5 votes
                        #16.5 - Thu Jan 5, 2012 9:45 PM EST
                        MeanGene-3334839

                        Not to speak for another member...but I don't think that your comment addressed the meaning of hers.

                        Of course it did. Hope was expressed that if prohibitionists (like myself) can be convinced that marijuana will be legalized, and I responded that this is not the case nor will it ever be the case.

                        You and I both know for a fact that marijuana will still be illegal tomorrow. Even if it were legalized by some act of epic insanity, it still wouldn't be legal for the kids who make up a sizable portion of the black market for drugs. There would still be an age restriction and so, there would still be an illicit market available.

                        Your statements are almost a characature of what many think of when they think of someone against legalization. They are filled with hyperbole and seem to indicate an unwillingness to even listen to another side.

                        The other side is proposing something preposterous to me. It would be like somebody from NAMBLA (North American Man/Boy Love Association) claiming that I'm interfering in their freedoms because I'm anti-molestation. How could I ever reasonably agree with that?

                        How can you reasonably make the argument to me that I should put up with pot smoking?

                        I cannot fathom the possibility that I would view drug abuse as a win for a lawful society. Obeying the law requires a sound mind, and when a mind is driven insane (temporarily or otherwise) by drug abuse then the ability to follow the law goes away with the impaired mind.

                        We kind of need people to follow the law to have a lawful society. That (like stoners) is a no-brainer.

                        • 1 vote
                        #16.6 - Thu Jan 5, 2012 10:35 PM EST
                        Socrates1

                        I'm afraid I believe you are still missing the point, but perhaps she will return and provide her own response. In other words, it has nothing to do with whether "agreeing with the law" is an extreme position.

                        As to the NAMBLA comparison....Sure, if that's the way you see it, than that's the way you see it. My problem is that, so far, you have been making what some might consider wild accusations and provided little evidence to support them. If it turned out, for example, that NAMBLA was not what you thought it was, than I would assume you would have to change your mind based on new evidence....and no, I don't mean anything close to what it is now.

                        How can you reasonably make the argument to me that I should put up with pot smoking?

                        Seeing as I attempted to answer this question in the article I'm not sure what further information you need.

                        Summing things up, it's unconstitutional (or was back when the constitution meant something), even at the time of the signing it was passed under false pretenses, thousands, if not millions, of Americans have used it at some time in their lives and have gone on to lead productive lives whereas those same people might easily have become burdens on society had they been caught, criminalization produces a whole class of people who view law enforcement as the enemy who would otherwise be much more likely to ally themselves with the forces of law and order, we already are prey to all the ill effects of marijuana use, and yet choose to add even more negative consequences, and it provides yet another issue on which to divide otherwise compatible Americans.

                        I don't have to condone its use to understand the pragmatic benefits of taking another course. As already mentioned, should (other) illegal activities be engaged in while under the influence, then certainly, as with any other perpetrator, they should be brought to justice.

                        I cannot fathom the possibility that I would view drug abuse as a win for a lawful society. Obeying the law requires a sound mind, and when a mind is driven insane (temporarily or otherwise) by drug abuse then the ability to follow the law goes away with the impaired mind.

                        I'm not asking you to view drug abuse as a win for lawful society. There are plenty of activies people engage in which I consider to have negative consequences, but, we have brave men such as yourself who have fought, and sometimes died, to allow each of us to make certain decisions on our own. I disagree that obeying the law always necissitates a sound mind. If someone wishes to get high within the four wall of their home I don't really see that as much of a threat to public order. Again, should they break the law...they broke the law and, as such, should be made to take the consequences. In fact, one might suggest that more attention could be paid to the perpetrators of other, more violent, crimes, as well as addressing the problem of border security and increasing violence along the border. It seems to me that you make no distinction between drinking one glass of wine and chugging the entire bottle.

                        We kind of need people to follow the law to have a lawful society. That (like stoners) is a no-brainer

                        Absolutely, which is why I suggest that criminalizing this behavior produces an entire sub-set of people which would otherwise be exactly the type of people of which you speak. I don't see a danger of pot smokers deciding that they are now going to become thieves simply because smoking pot is now legal and they have an innate desire to break the law.

                        • 6 votes
                        #16.7 - Thu Jan 5, 2012 11:22 PM EST
                        Becky-2100114

                        simply because smoking pot is now legal and they have an innate desire to break the law.

                        Hahaha.....those law breakers. Actually, it will do the opposite, they won't be paranoid about the cops and can relax and enjoy. lol I have to say Mean Gene, you are so extreme, I'm finding relief that everyone else finds you as silly as I do. You are strong willed....that's for sure. :)

                        • 3 votes
                        #16.8 - Thu Jan 5, 2012 11:57 PM EST
                        Becky-2100114

                        It's funny......I am a really big believer in God and the Bible but have always been a bit of a hippie. I attend church twice a week and work in Children's Church and mentor the teen girls. I didn't realize I still had so much of it still in me. I love hippie's. If any of you are on here.....you're my people and I love you. Peace :)

                        I don't look like one as much as I used to. My daughter saw one of the hippie moms getting out of her car at school and my daughter said totally serious, "Oh mom, we need to pray for her, she's having a really bad day." I busted out laughing. I felt so bad for laughing at my daughters sincerity. I told her that was so kind but that lady looks like that intentionally. (thought I'd lighten the load a bit....sorry to get off topic)

                        • 3 votes
                        #16.9 - Fri Jan 6, 2012 12:33 AM EST
                        HydeWhyte

                        Becky, I had a feeling there was more than one reason I liked you. FR sent, hope you'll accept:)

                        • 3 votes
                        #16.10 - Fri Jan 6, 2012 2:46 AM EST
                        Lisafrequency

                        MG-

                        I respect your opinion I do no agree with it. I am pretty sure that Marijuana has been legal thru out history longer than it has been illegal. Harsh laws cause rebellion.

                        The cost is becoming too much for the people and the earth to bare.

                        I am pretty sure you might do something that someone does not like there may even be some obscure law against it. Our reps in Washington are working double over time to make enough laws that almost anyone is breaking the law now. Don't get caught with more than 7 days worth of food.

                        • 2 votes
                        #16.11 - Fri Jan 6, 2012 6:33 AM EST
                        LMSLMS

                        @MeanGene:

                        2 things:

                        1. I can understand, but don't agree with, your position that pot should be illegal. But what I can't understand is what would lead you to be against it SO intensely? Did you once get attacked by a bong or something? Seriously, did you have a bad experience with pot? You are SO against it that it's kind of weird.

                        2. You keep saying it will never, ever be legal. You're out of your mind. It is already, for all intents and purposes, completely legal in CA. I can (and do) walk into the dispensary and buy an 1/8th just like I was buying a carton of milk.

                        • 3 votes
                        #16.12 - Fri Jan 6, 2012 2:03 PM EST
                        MeanGene-3334839

                        1. I can understand, but don't agree with, your position that pot should be illegal. But what I can't understand is what would lead you to be against it SO intensely? Did you once get attacked by a bong or something? Seriously, did you have a bad experience with pot? You are SO against it that it's kind of weird.

                        Pot ruined my brother's life and killed him. You only need to kill my brother once to make me mad. My brother was lured in (like so many innocent kids are) at the age of 14 when he was just starting High School. He fell in with the wrong crowd (potheads are always the wrong crowd), started getting into trouble with the law, dropped out of school and with no diploma and a rap sheet on his record, he couldn't land a job. He lived a miserable life until cancer caused by marijuana finally ended it all at the ripe old age of 39. That's why you don't see a whole lot of elderly pot smokers.

                        2. You keep saying it will never, ever be legal. You're out of your mind. It is already, for all intents and purposes, completely legal in CA. I can (and do) walk into the dispensary and buy an 1/8th just like I was buying a carton of milk.

                        It's not even close to completely legal, and CA defeated a proposition to legalize it in 2010 which speaks volumes to how very unimpressed by the "medical marijuana" fraud Californians actually are. Most "medical marijuana" card holders in California are males under the age of 30, listing "intractable pain" as their fraudulent ailment. Fewer than 5% of medical marijuana card holders in California actually have glaucoma, AIDS or any other real disease.

                        California law doesn't (and never will) trump Federal law, and Federal Law says it's illegal. So long as you are anywhere in the USA, marijuana is illegal and what the stupid STATE says about it won't keep you out of trouble with the Feds.

                        • 1 vote
                        #16.13 - Fri Jan 6, 2012 2:33 PM EST
                        LMSLMS

                        I see... Well, you're still wrong but at least now I have a better understanding of why you feel as you do. I think you might be displacing some of your anger about the loss of your brother onto 'pot' - in any event we can agree to disagree. Sorry for your loss.

                        • 4 votes
                        #16.14 - Fri Jan 6, 2012 4:27 PM EST
                        Lisafrequency

                        MG-

                        I am so sorry for your loss.

                        • 2 votes
                        #16.15 - Fri Jan 6, 2012 6:18 PM EST
                        Becky-2100114

                        I too am sorry for your loss MG and can see why your feelings are so strong. Peace :)

                        • 2 votes
                        #16.16 - Fri Jan 6, 2012 9:34 PM EST
                        Socrates1

                        Mean Gene, and I don't mean to take your story lightly, but it is exactly the type of thing which happened to your brother that I am trying to prevent. I'd rather not get into a conversation which might become too personal, but perhaps it was the illegality of marijuana which created the circumstances that had such dire consequences. Whether it be the "bad crowd", and I would assume they drank as well, or whether it be a rap sheet, which may, or may not have been the result of smoking pot. In other words, assumming that the only thing on someones rap sheet is an arrest for possession of one joint, do you really want to consign that person to the same type of thing your brother experienced, or wouldn't it be better for society to chalk it up to a mistake, not have a record, and be able to go on to get a job?

                        • 3 votes
                        #16.17 - Fri Jan 6, 2012 10:30 PM EST
                        Becky-2100114

                        My mother told me when I was in my 20's.....

                        "It's not MJ that's bad, it's where you have to go to get it. It's a gateway drug because the dealers expose you to what's going to "hook" you and then you're ruined. You don't see old drug addicts."

                        All the more reason the legalize it and stop giving gangs and mobsters our money who are NOT good people.

                        • 4 votes
                        #16.18 - Fri Jan 6, 2012 10:39 PM EST
                        sammy sezso

                        MeanGene-3334839

                        Pot ruined my brother's life and killed him.

                        ...

                        ...marijuana finally ended it all at the ripe old age of 39. That's why you don't see a whole lot of elderly pot smokers.

                        Now I have a problem with that Gene. I don't doubt your story, but I doubt that it is what "normally" happens to pot smokers. I know many older people (50+) that smoke pot and have smoked their whole lives. Some of them are business owners and some grow their own in other houses they own. None of them are in trouble with the law, most of them contribute to the city and support various functions and contribute to society.

                        I doubt that pot alone did all that to your brother. people are all different. My sister died of breast cancer at the age of 41 and she never smoked anything in her whole life, so how can you say that pot caused your brother's cancer? My aunt died of cancer and didn't smoke either.

                        My grandfather smoked bugler and filterless camels for 50 years and died of old age.

                        Cancer can hit anyone at any time. It hits children and adults and does not care weather you smoked pot or cigarettes or anything else or not. Cancer is the worst disease that exists and yet we spend more on fighting the war on drugs than we do on cancer research.

                        More people die from legal drugs than illegal drugs.

                        The new tech bongs and vaporizers give off much less tar than cigarettes and reduces the risks of lung related illnesses.

                        I agree that the medical marijuana has been abused where it was legal, but it did help the people that did have a legitimate use.

                        Why don't you blame the doctors that are writing the prescriptions for the abuse? It is their expert opinion and trained examinations that determine which pain medication should be used to suit the ailment. If the doctors are writing illegal prescriptions then we need to go after the doctors and take away their prescription pads, not penalize everyone that needs it for a good reason.

                        • 4 votes
                        #16.19 - Sat Jan 7, 2012 12:34 AM EST
                        sammy sezso

                        What is the lethal dose of marijuana?

                        According to which US Government authority you want to believe, the lethal dose of marijuana is either about one-third your body weight, or about 1,500 pounds, consumed all at once.

                        In summary, enormous doses of Delta 9 THC, All THC and concentrated marihuana extract ingested by mouth were unable to produce death or organ pathology in large mammals but did produce fatalities in smaller rodents due to profound central nervous system depression.

                        The non-fatal consumption of 3000 mg/kg A THC by the dog and monkey would be comparable to a 154-pound human eating approximately 46 pounds (21 kilograms) of 1%-marihuana or 10 pounds of 5% hashish at one time. In addition, 92 mg/kg THC intravenously produced no fatalities in monkeys. These doses would be comparable to a 154-pound human smoking at one time almost three pounds (1.28 kg) of 1%-marihuana or 250,000 times the usual smoked dose and over a million times the minimal effective dose assuming 50% destruction of the THC by smoking.

                        Thus, evidence from animal studies and human case reports appears to indicate that the ratio of lethal dose to effective dose is quite large. This ratio is much more favorable than that of many other common psychoactive agents including alcohol and barbiturates (Phillips et al. 1971, Brill et al. 1970).

                        http://www.druglibrary.org/SCHAFFER/LIBRARY/mj_overdose.htm

                        4.  Nearly all medicines have toxic, potentially lethal
                        effects.  But marijuana is not such a substance.  There is no record in
                        the extensive medical literature describing a proven, documented
                        cannabis-induced fatality.
                        5.  This is a remarkable statement. First, the record on
                        marijuana encompasses 5,000 years of human experience.  Second, marijuana
                        is now used daily by enormous numbers of people throughout the world.
                        Estimates suggest that from twenty million to fifty million Americans
                        routinely, albeit illegally, smoke marijuana without the benefit of
                        direct medical supervision.  Yet, despite this long history of use and
                        the extraordinarily high numbers of social smokers, there are simply no
                        credible medical reports to suggest that consuming marijuana has caused a
                        single death.
                        
                        6.  By contrast aspirin, a commonly used, over-the-counter
                        medicine, causes hundreds of deaths each year.
                        
                        7.  Drugs used in medicine are routinely given what is called
                        an LD-50.  The LD-50 rating indicates at what dosage fifty percent of
                        test animals receiving a drug will die as a result of drug induced
                        toxicity.  A number of researchers have attempted to determine
                        marijuana's LD-50 rating in test animals, without success.  Simply
                        stated, researchers have been unable to give animals enough marijuana to
                        induce death.
                        
                        8.  At present it is estimated that marijuana's LD-50 is around
                        1:20,000 or 1:40,000.  In layman terms this means that in order to induce
                        death a marijuana smoker would have to consume 20,000 to 40,000 times as
                        much marijuana as is contained in one marijuana cigarette.  NIDA-supplied
                        marijuana cigarettes weigh approximately .9 grams.  A smoker would
                        theoretically have to consume nearly 1,500 pounds of marijuana within
                        about fifteen minutes to induce a lethal response.
                        
                        9.  In practical terms, marijuana cannot induce a lethal
                        response as a result of drug-related toxicity.
                        
                        10.  Another common medical way to determine drug safety is
                        called the therapeutic ratio.  This ratio defines the difference between
                        a therapeutically effective dose and a dose which is capable of inducing
                        adverse effects.
                        
                                 11. A commonly used over-the-counter product like aspirin has a
                        therapeutic ratio of around 1:20.  Two aspirins are the recommended dose
                        for adult patients.  Twenty times this dose, forty aspirins, may cause a
                        lethal reaction in some patients, and will almost certainly cause gross
                        injury to the digestive system, including extensive internal bleeding.
                        
                                 12.  The therapeutic ratio for prescribed drugs is commonly
                        around 1:10 or lower.  Valium, a commonly used prescriptive drug, may
                        cause very serious biological damage if patients use ten times the
                        recommended (therapeutic) dose.
                        
                                 13.  There are, of course, prescriptive drugs which have much
                        lower therapeutic ratios.  Many of the drugs used to treat patients with
                        cancer, glaucoma and multiple sclerosis are highly toxic.  The
                        therapeutic ratio of some of the drugs used in antineoplastic therapies,
                        for example, are regarded as extremely toxic poisons with therapeutic
                        ratios that may fall below 1:1.5.  These drugs also have very low LD-50
                        ratios and can result in toxic, even lethal reactions, while being
                        properly employed.
                        
                                 14.  By contrast, marijuana's therapeutic ratio, like its LD-50,
                        is impossible to quantify because it is so high.
                        
                                 15.  In strict medical terms marijuana is far safer than many
                        foods we commonly consume.  For example, eating ten raw potatoes can
                        result in a toxic response.  By comparison, it is physically impossible
                        to eat enough marijuana to induce death.
                        
                                 16.  Marijuana, in its natural form, is one of the safest
                        therapeutically active substances known to man.  By any measure of rational analysis
                        marijuana can be safely used within a supervised routine of medical care.
                        http://www.druglibrary.org/SCHAFFER/LIBRARY/mj_overdose.htm
                        
                        • 4 votes
                        #16.20 - Sat Jan 7, 2012 12:42 AM EST
                        MeanGene-3334839

                        Soc said:

                        Mean Gene, and I don't mean to take your story lightly, but it is exactly the type of thing which happened to your brother that I am trying to prevent. I'd rather not get into a conversation which might become too personal, but perhaps it was the illegality of marijuana which created the circumstances that had such dire consequences.

                        Here's the problem with that.

                        First of all, my brother was 14 years old, a kid too young to drive, and unable to grasp the ramifications of what he was getting into. Nobody, but nobody, is seriously proposing that marijuana be legalized for grade schoolers. It would still be very much illegal, and secondly, schools would still be "drug free school zones". Possession and distribution of marijuana in a school would still be a crime, even if marijuana were "legalized".

                        Finally, marijuana is a contributing factor in school dropouts, in fact a kid who smokes pot while in High School is twice as likely to drop out. The reason why is simple: marijuana abuse affects critical memory function which in turn makes schoolwork more difficult for a marijuana abusing child than for his peers. As the student falters and falls behind, he becomes frustrated and simply gives up, calls it quits, and ruins his future in the process.

                        Whether it be the "bad crowd", and I would assume they drank as well, or whether it be a rap sheet, which may, or may not have been the result of smoking pot. In other words, assumming that the only thing on someones rap sheet is an arrest for possession of one joint, do you really want to consign that person to the same type of thing your brother experienced, or wouldn't it be better for society to chalk it up to a mistake, not have a record, and be able to go on to get a job?

                        That's actually true, the "bad crowd" did drink as well, and my brother got busted for it. One of the items was "minor in possession of alcohol" which was just another line item on his rap sheet. Probably the worst part of hanging with the bad crowd was when he borrowed a car from one of his "friends" and lo and behold, the car was jacked. Guess who got pulled over for driving a stolen vehicle? Grand Theft Auto was a fine addition to his rap sheet, and don't you know that Judges won't believe the "I just borrowed it" story? My brother did hard time in the Pen before he was 21 on a felony rap. Marijuana surely played a part in his poor judgment because I wouldn't go borrowing a car from somebody who likely stole it.

                        Would legalization improve the quality of the people who smoke pot? I dunno, go into a bar and see what the legalization of alcohol did to attract quality drunks for yourself. Even if marijuana were legalized, it's still going to be bad hombres getting into the drugs.

                        • 1 vote
                        #16.21 - Sat Jan 7, 2012 7:19 AM EST
                        MeanGene-3334839

                        sammy sezso,

                        Why don't you blame the doctors that are writing the prescriptions for the abuse? It is their expert opinion and trained examinations that determine which pain medication should be used to suit the ailment. If the doctors are writing illegal prescriptions then we need to go after the doctors and take away their prescription pads, not penalize everyone that needs it for a good reason.

                        Patients are liars. That's why doctors offices have scales and don't take the patients word on how much they weigh. I had a helicopter pilot tell me women lie about their passenger weight all the time, fatsos claiming to weigh 120 pounds when there's no way she weighs under 200. It's a stupid lie to tell because most people who ride in a helicopter which runs out of gas in flight don't get to fly again.

                        I blame the patients that lie. If a patient says he has excruciating back pain, the doctor has no choice but to take the patient at his word because the doctor can't feel how much it hurts. That's why medical marijuana is so easily abused. The people who want marijuana may not exactly be pillars of the community types, after all.

                        When Rush Limbaugh was busted for Oxycodone (hillbilly heroin), he was accused of "Doctor Shopping", a practice in which the patient just roams from Doctor to Doctor gathering a stack of prescriptions, and of course neglects to tell Doc "B" that Doc "A" just gave him the same happy pills. Would I blame Doc "B" for believing the lies from his patient? Of course not! The Doc ain't at fault at all! The dishonest patient is a scoundrel, but the Doc didn't do anything wrong.

                        I remember reading an article about a marijuana dispensary in Palisades, CO (near Grand Junction) whose proprietor actually chases off customers who are obviously full of crap. Basically, Jesse Loughman (co-owner of Colorado Alternative Health Care) doesn't want customers under the age of 30 with scam cards around his shop. He's already got his pick of the litter because his shop is the last one standing in the Grand Valley. He's nearly maxxed out on legit customers so the parade of illegit customers get shown the door. He doesn't want people to see his parking lot full of kids who look like cast rejects from Fast Times At Ridgemont High because that kind of thing is why nearby cities (like Grand Junction) have re-banned dispensaries.

                        The "marijuana friendly" doctors may be willing to listen to the lies of patients moreso than other less trusting doctors, but the true responsibility for the lies, frauds and deceptions can be laid at the feet of the patients pursuing these scam cards for medical marijuana to "get legal" as the ads put it.

                        • 1 vote
                        #16.22 - Sat Jan 7, 2012 7:55 AM EST
                        sammy sezso

                        Patients are liars.

                        Your comments sure do paint people with a wide brush! Not everyone lies about their pain, and if a trained doctor says that they think the best course of treatment is to prescribe medical marijuana then who are you to say the patient doesn't need it? What medical credentials do you have that proves you know more than the doctors?

                        When Rush Limbaugh was busted for Oxycodone (hillbilly heroin), he was accused of "Doctor Shopping",

                        If people want to shop doctors that's fine! Second and third opinions are encouraged. Keep track of the prescriptions that are written by the doctors and not allow duplicate prescriptions to be filled at the pharmacy.

                        Just because certain people choose to abuse a drug, weather it be legal or illegal, can never be stopped. Pot can be grown in a few months, so people could grow their own if you cut off the supply. In fact most of the marijuana that is consumed in the United States is grown here. There will always be a black market for drugs no matter what you do.

                        Pot never killed anyone, but how many people die every year that are preventable deaths? The money that is being wasted trying to catch and prosecute people for using pot, and then the jail space that we all have to pay for to keep them if they are convicted, could be put to much better use in other places. We walk right past the hungry children to prosecute the kid that smokes a joint before school. Where do our priorities lie? How is our government helping anyone by depriving some people of basic human needs, so they can chase "criminals" that are smoking pot?

                        • 1 vote
                        #16.23 - Sat Jan 7, 2012 9:52 AM EST
                        MeanGene-3334839

                        Your comments sure do paint people with a wide brush! Not everyone lies about their pain, and if a trained doctor says that they think the best course of treatment is to prescribe medical marijuana then who are you to say the patient doesn't need it? What medical credentials do you have that proves you know more than the doctors?

                        Doctors are the reason that Marijuana is Schedule 1(d). It's listed as a hallucinogen with no medicinal value because there are other drugs available with greater efficacy and fewer risky side effects.

                        The problem as I see it is that intoxicating the patient is a bad thing, not a good thing. You see, medicine is supposed to restore normalcy to the patient as much as possible, and marijuana does not restore normalcy to the patient. Patients are not normally impaired, after all. This means that the side effect, the "high" so adored by the fans of the Demon Weed is actually the reason why it's Schedule I. Other drugs have greater efficacy without the dangers of abuse, dependency, and intoxication.

                        If people want to shop doctors that's fine! Second and third opinions are encouraged. Keep track of the prescriptions that are written by the doctors and not allow duplicate prescriptions to be filled at the pharmacy.

                        That would be quite ineffective. I live in Phoenix, Arizona. I can pull my truck out of my garage and be in Mexico inside of four hours. I can have breakfast in Phoenix, lunch in Nogales, Mexico, and supper back in Phoenix again and in the meantime visit a dozen "farmacias" to fill prescriptions outside the purview of any American database system. It's a futile effort made to fail.

                        Just because certain people choose to abuse a drug, weather it be legal or illegal, can never be stopped. Pot can be grown in a few months, so people could grow their own if you cut off the supply. In fact most of the marijuana that is consumed in the United States is grown here. There will always be a black market for drugs no matter what you do.

                        You could say the same thing about rape. Rapes can never be stopped. That doesn't mean the solution is to legalize rape. You could say the same thing about child pornography, terrorism, murder and Justin Bieber videos. The law isn't meant to stop anything from happening, it's meant to punish the bastards who commit the crimes.

                        The people who grow pot can go to jail, where they don't grow pot anymore. People who have marijuana go to jail for the simple and basic reason that it's the place they most belong. The objective isn't to get rid of the dope, the objective is to get rid of the enemies of society who use dope. Public enemies go to jail.

                        Pot never killed anyone, but how many people die every year that are preventable deaths?

                        Pot has killed over 50,000 people in Mexico at the hands of drug cartels over the past three years. That's over 50 murders per day funded by the vile creeps who buy their pot and don't care who has to die so they can get stoned.

                        The money that is being wasted trying to catch and prosecute people for using pot, and then the jail space that we all have to pay for to keep them if they are convicted, could be put to much better use in other places.

                        The money isn't a waste. The crimes prevented by locking up the criminals who like marijuana are legion. Potheads make up 85% of all known criminals and are responsible for nearly 9 out of 10 crimes committed in the USA. They are the backbone of crime in America and locking them away breaks the back of crime. 85% of criminals incarcerated today have used marijuana. If Demon Weedsters were incarcerated on a mandatory life sentence with no possibility of parole instead of being let go, then we'd have nearly no crime in America today.

                        • 1 vote
                        #16.24 - Sat Jan 7, 2012 10:31 AM EST
                        sammy sezso

                        Doctors are the reason that Marijuana is Schedule 1(d). It's listed as a hallucinogen with no medicinal value because there are other drugs available with greater efficacy and fewer risky side effects.

                        The problem as I see it is that intoxicating the patient is a bad thing, not a good thing. You see, medicine is supposed to restore normalcy to the patient as much as possible, and marijuana does not restore normalcy to the patient. Patients are not normally impaired, after all. This means that the side effect, the "high" so adored by the fans of the Demon Weed is actually the reason why it's Schedule I. Other drugs have greater efficacy without the dangers of abuse, dependency, and intoxication.

                        Yes Doctors got it classified years ago before they used modern methods to find out more about it BUT lobbyists are the reason why it is still classified as a sched. 1 drug.

                        There have been many studies on the medicinal effects of marijuana and it does have some positive effects for patients of some diseases and this also proves that marijuana should NOT be scheduled as a class 1 drug. The big pharma corporations have kept it classified as a class 1 to lessen their competition. Take the corrupt corporate money out of government and pot will be legalized within a year.

                        For a long list of the benefits of medical marijuana please click here. Something tells me that facts aren't going to sway your opinions though.

                        That would be quite ineffective. I live in Phoenix, Arizona. I can pull my truck out of my garage and be in Mexico inside of four hours. I can have breakfast in Phoenix, lunch in Nogales, Mexico, and supper back in Phoenix again and in the meantime visit a dozen "farmacias" to fill prescriptions outside the purview of any American database system. It's a futile effort made to fail.

                        I'm in Houston I know just what you mean. They cannot stop the mexican drugs from coming into the U.S. no matter how hard they try! But they can control the American Pharmacies very easily. A very small percentage of Americans go to mexico for drugs and doctor and dental care. In most cases it is illegal to bring the drugs back into this country and there is little or no enforcement possible in some areas. Let's face it some people won't obey the laws no matter what we do, and we'll never catch every offender. So does that mean that we shouldn't try? Does that mean that we should just let the doctors and pharmacies continue to write and fill bogus prescriptions? NO. There are many less pharmacies than there are people trying to abuse the drugs, so it only makes sense to target the pharmacies and make it harder to fill the prescriptions. It would be very effective except for the areas that are close to the borders, in which case, border protection should be increased to halt the illegal pharmaceutical drugs.

                        You could say the same thing about rape. Rapes can never be stopped. That doesn't mean the solution is to legalize rape. You could say the same thing about child pornography, terrorism, murder and Justin Bieber videos. The law isn't meant to stop anything from happening, it's meant to punish the bastards who commit the crimes.

                        NO. Rape is a crime against another person, so is child pornography, terrorism and murder and Justin Bieber videos! They are all crimes that hurt another person. They are all different from smoking pot. If someone grows a plant and then smokes it who is harmed? Laws are needed to protect other people from harm. Those laws are in place, though not perfect. We do not need laws to protect us from ourselves, laws are supposed to protect us from being hurt by someone else.

                        Funny that you bring up the child porn though because many more people are hurt by child porn every year and many are killed because of it, yet our government has not yet declared war against it. Why is that? Why is our government protecting the big phama industry from having competition and ignoring the child pornographers? Our government has their priorities up their ass, and corrupt corporate dollars in their pockets, that's the real problem.

                        The people who grow pot can go to jail, where they don't grow pot anymore. People who have marijuana go to jail for the simple and basic reason that it's the place they most belong. The objective isn't to get rid of the dope, the objective is to get rid of the enemies of society who use dope. Public enemies go to jail.

                        But we all have to pay to keep these "enemies" in jail that have done nothing to hurt anyone other than themselves. Their only offense is smoking something that is prohibited, for now. The courts and jails now have revolving doors on them to accommodate the many people picked up on minor drug charges. So the states are lowering the fines and jail times to make room for criminals that actually hurt someone else. In most cases, unless you are selling weed, the police will just write a ticket and it is a misdemeanor charge for personal possession. Pay the fine and it is all over. no worse than a speeding ticket on your record.

                        Pot has killed over 50,000 people in Mexico at the hands of drug cartels over the past three years. That's over 50 murders per day funded by the vile creeps who buy their pot and don't care who has to die so they can get stoned.

                        WRONG! POT has NEVER killed anyone! Never, NOT ONE DEATH has ever been blamed on the toxicity of marijuana! Ever in the history of keeping history. Bullets kill, not pot. If pot were legal here in the states, they would stop killing people trying to smuggle it in. The prices would go down so low it wouldn't be profitable to import it anymore. Please show me proof of any death from pot smoking, and don't forget to list the source.

                        Common Aspirin kills hundreds of people every year, but any child can wonder into a store and buy it with no questions asked! Pot does NOT kill! http://www.druglibrary.org/SCHAFFER/LIBRARY/mj_overdose.htm

                        If you doubt that pot has never killed one person ever, then show me your proof! Drugs are usually associated with violence because they are illegal. If pot were legalized, it would not be in that environment with all of the other illegal drugs, like aspirin is today. Even though aspirin clearly causes much more harm every year than pot ever has!

                        The money isn't a waste. The crimes prevented by locking up the criminals who like marijuana are legion.

                        How is it not a waste of money to house victimless criminals for decades? The only crimes that would be prevented are breaking the drug laws.

                        Potheads make up 85% of all known criminals and are responsible for nearly 9 out of 10 crimes committed in the USA.

                        Can I see your source for this statement? Because I think it's B.S.

                        They are the backbone of crime in America and locking them away breaks the back of crime. 85% of criminals incarcerated today have used marijuana.

                        I bet 100% of those people have also used aspirin, so by your logic all criminals are aspirin use too! Probably 100% also drank beer at some time during their lives. Just because they used pot at some point in their lives it doesn't mean that pot had anything to do with other crimes they have committed. There are millions that use pot and have never been arrested.

                        If Demon Weedsters were incarcerated on a mandatory life sentence with no possibility of parole instead of being let go, then we'd have nearly no crime in America today.

                        ROFLMAO!! Man, that is a crazy statement that has absolutely no basis in fact! demon weedsters LMFAO! I love it!

                        Here I'll play that way too. If we lock up everyone that uses aspirin for the rest of their life we could rid the earth of all crime forever! Or how about if we outlaw the use of gasoline and see if that has any effect on the number of drunk driving fatalities. That will tell us if gasoline causes people to drive drunk? That would probably be a plan you could get behind too.

                        • 5 votes
                        #16.25 - Sat Jan 7, 2012 4:08 PM EST
                        sammy sezso

                        I just had to post this link about drug abuse.

                        I can't believe nobody has posted it yet!

                        HmmOkay now please pass the bag of mari ju anna up front, please, anyone.... LOL :)

                        • 6 votes
                        #16.26 - Sat Jan 7, 2012 4:20 PM EST
                        sammy sezso

                        Or this link! It is even better!

                        Are these your sources???

                        :)

                        • 3 votes
                        #16.27 - Sat Jan 7, 2012 5:15 PM EST
                        Socrates1

                        Thanks for the discussion...please keep it respectful.

                        MeanGene...

                        The primary thing I come away with after reading your comment responding to mine is that everything of which you speak occurred when marijuana was illegal. I'm just not sure how legalization would have made it worse, and, I would suggest, that is some ways it would make it better.

                        As even you concede, drinking played a large part in the unfortunate events which occurred in your brother's life. Honestly, I would be much more "angry" at alcohol, as many of the things you mention seem to be much more related to alcohol abuse. As an aside, I might mention here that I'm not much of a drinker either, and that I have had several friends and acquaintances die from the effects of alcohol abuse and watched as others have seemingly watched their lives spin out of control. The point being, there are real dangers in the use, and abuse, of alcohol, but I don't see a return to Prohibition as the answer.

                        Would legalization improve the quality of the people who smoke pot? I dunno, go into a bar and see what the legalization of alcohol did to attract quality drunks for yourself. Even if marijuana were legalized, it's still going to be bad hombres getting into the drugs.

                        And yet that's not the question, in my mind.

                        • 2 votes
                        #16.28 - Sat Jan 7, 2012 8:00 PM EST
                        looselucy

                        "American Drug War: The Last White Hope" By Kevin Booth is one of the best documentaries I have ever seen on this topic. Worth the 2 hours of your time.... no matter which side you are on it is a must see.

                        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IFq1Mnkmyv8

                        Starring Sherrif Joe (among many others), for those of you in Phoenix!

                        • 1 vote
                        #16.29 - Sat Jan 7, 2012 9:14 PM EST
                        Reply
                        LMSLMS

                        Prohibition doesn't work. The "war on drugs" was an abject failure and incredible waste of resources. Money should be spent on prevention, on the front end, and on treatment on the back end. But to put people in jail for smoking or possessing pot is asinine. There is no reason the government should be able to tell me I can't smoke a joint in the privacy of my own home. It's a cliche at this point, but I also feel compelled to mention how absurd it is that alcohol and cigarettes are legal but pot isn't. What a stupid, stupid law. LEGALIZE IT!

                        • 6 votes
                        Reply#17 - Thu Jan 5, 2012 4:39 PM EST
                        Tex-988483

                        Socrates 1:

                        Well, I'm back.

                        I am assuredly a member of the choir and just wanted to thank you for a logical well thought out Old School Conservative Argument. A tip o the Stetson in your general direction. I do miss arguing with real conservatives. There truly aren't many out there these days.

                        It is heartening to find some solidarity with the other side of the barricades.

                        best atcah

                        "Like what you like, enjoy what you enjoy,
                        and don't take crap from anybody." The Guns and Dope Party

                        http://www.gunsanddopeparty.com/

                        • 4 votes
                        Reply#18 - Thu Jan 5, 2012 4:55 PM EST
                        Socrates1

                        A man who delivers on his promises....very nice.

                        I'll take a look at the link a little later..

                        • 4 votes
                        #18.1 - Thu Jan 5, 2012 6:14 PM EST
                        Socrates1

                        Just one little tidbit from the site.....On the other hand, you might need to have an altered state of consciousness to really understand some of the subjects..

                        For more than six hundred years -- that is, since Magna Carta, in 1215 -- there has been no clearer principle of English or American constitutional law, than that, in criminal cases, it is not only the right and duty of juries to judge what are the facts, what is the law, and what was the moral intent of the accused; but that it is also their right, and their primary and paramount duty, to judge the justice of the law, and to hold all laws invalid, that are, in their opinion, unjust or oppressive, and all persons guiltless in violating, or resisting the execution of, such law.

                        --Lysander Spooner, The Right of Juries

                        • 2 votes
                        #18.2 - Sat Jan 7, 2012 6:29 AM EST
                        Reply
                        bassdad

                        Couldn't agree more. I've worked in nightclub environments for twenty years, and have seen what alcohol does to people (and the people around them). Either pot needs to be legalized, or alcohol needs to be outlawed (worked great last time, didn't it?)

                        • 1 vote
                        Reply#19 - Thu Jan 5, 2012 5:17 PM EST
                        caballojoe

                        Thanks for the provocative article, Socrates. I agree with you completely. The most dangerous thing about smoking pot is getting caught by the authorities.

                        • 3 votes
                        Reply#20 - Thu Jan 5, 2012 5:35 PM EST
                        tony1234

                        And the munchies.

                        • 1 vote
                        #20.1 - Thu Jan 5, 2012 8:55 PM EST
                        Reply
                        CL1

                        Further, when one of the Congressmen asked what the AMA’s position was, he was told, incredibly, that the AMA supported it. In sum, the criminalization of marijuana was founded and passed on lie after lie, and yet, almost 75 years later, it still stands.(more info here)

                        ..And we continue to allow the lies to be told, and waste so much money supporting them.

                        Excellent article, Socrates.

                        • 6 votes
                        Reply#21 - Thu Jan 5, 2012 9:01 PM EST
                        Socrates1

                        Thank you Cl1

                        • 3 votes
                        #21.1 - Thu Jan 5, 2012 9:46 PM EST
                        Reply
                        Cavey Wavey

                        Why is this country such an @sshole factory? Seems like there is only two sides, people who want to live and let others live a good life and people who want everyone else to be miserable. It starts in school, educators try to mold us into that person nobody really likes. Well I say NO MORE.

                        • 4 votes
                        #22 - Sat Jan 7, 2012 1:34 AM EST
                        MeanGene-3334839

                        There's not only two sides. There's a responsibility side too, if you know something is going to hurt somebody then there's a duty to warn them.

                        For example, there's a strange insect here in Arizona, it's called the "Velvet Ant". It looks like an ant, about twice the size of a common one, with a plush furry butt. It actually looks kind of cute. The uninitiated might be tempted to pick one up and get a closer look. Bad idea. It's a wingless wasp and it will sting the crap out of you, and it will not stop. It's carapace is damned near bulletproof and swatting it just makes it madder. This is one cute bug that you do not want to screw around with.

                        I know that because I've seen 'em many a time, and I've seen what happens to those foolish enough to try their luck with one. Most folks not from Arizona wouldn't know what one was, so when I see a stranger to this land approaching one (or vice versa) I make a nice friendly warning that it's a badass wasp that just doesn't have wings. Do not mess with it. Or else.

                        Am I trying to ruin their lives? No. Interfere with their freedoms? No. I'm just trying to save them from learning a damned painful lesson that they could do without is all I'm trying to do.

                        That's what marijuana laws do, and that's the purpose they serve. They warn people away from a painful lesson that they don't need to learn the hard way.

                        • 2 votes
                        #22.1 - Sun Jan 8, 2012 6:01 PM EST
                        Socrates1

                        And yet we disagree. If you were to tell those same people that all ants were Velvet Ants and that Velvet Ants can kill you if you look at them, your warning would simple be ignored.

                        Your evidence is apparently all anecdotal, and thus is really subject to question.

                        Example.....If the individual of whom you were speaking earlier also took an aspirin a day, would you suggest that aspirin be criminalized based on that evidence?

                        • 2 votes
                        #22.2 - Sun Jan 8, 2012 6:42 PM EST
                        MeanGene-3334839

                        Example.....If the individual of whom you were speaking earlier also took an aspirin a day, would you suggest that aspirin be criminalized based on that evidence?

                        You might want to choose a better example.

                        Soc, aspirin can be lethal. It's called Reyes Syndrome. The deaths are real. The graves are cold. Yes, I think that aspirin should be upgraded to at least a Schedule III. It should not be available over the counter. It is not safe.

                        Do you know why you used that as an example? I do. You used it because you thought it was safe, and why would you think that? You thought it was safe because it's legal, that's why, and that right there is why marijuana should NEVER be legalized.

                        I've got a problem right now with my Dad and the stupid "legal" Indian casinos. My Dad is stone cold broke, in debt and can't wait for his "big win" which will never come. Gambling addiction is very similar to marijuana addiction in that it's mental, and not physical. The only sure-fire way to make a small fortune at a casino is to start with a large one and whittle it down.

                        I despise vice. Between my gambling Daddy and my dead doper brother, I honestly wonder if I'm actually genetically related to my dysfunctional family at all. We did have a milkman that my mother liked a lot...

                        Back to the topic. Drugs are serious business, they're not something to casually wash down with a glass of water with no thought as to what you're doing. I take no drugs at all, I don't believe in them. When I get a cold, I make chicken soup. It works better than aspirin and it doesn't have the nasty side effects... like death.

                        • 2 votes
                        #22.3 - Sun Jan 8, 2012 7:44 PM EST
                        Lisafrequency

                        There's a responsibility side too, if you know something is going to hurt somebody then there's a duty to warn them.

                        It depends MG are the ones being warned under your charge? Adults should be able to make their own choices and as long as they bring no harm to others it is really none of anyone's business.

                        We can go back to referring to the prostitute and the John the profession would not exist if there were no demand it is a free market so to say except for the laws against it. But now we drive to the black market where there comes into play human trafficking and young children. Now I do not advocate for it I think it is dangerous but 2 consenting adults ought to be able to take whatever consequences or benefits they get with no interference from me as long as they bring no harm to me or my property it is really none of my business. I recent having to pay law enforcement to run these people in. I wish it was legal all over like in Nevada. I feel everyone concerned is safer it were done that way instead of women and girls standing on the street taking such chances.

                        No matter what I think of what you do it is still not really my business unless you ask me what i think of what you are doing or come to me for help. I have learned a lot about trying to help people and I find that in many cases I have just gotten run over. The small things work the best for me holding doors and handing people things they drop work best for me. I walk a line when it comes to trying to save people's life because the truth is some people do not want to be saved and i could get sued even if I saved someone's life. I have stopped numerous people from choking it as automatic I never gave it a second thought I just immediately applied the maneuver to stop choking. I stopped someone from bleeding once who had an accident out in their yard. I helped some people turn over a jeep that had turned over in a deep mud pit and helped pull out the people were trapped underneath it. It was automatic I did not even have to ask myself if I should do something i just did it.

                        But I would never try to get a hooker off the street or try to stop a John from soliciting. If I saw a girl who looked under age i would probably try to do something about it.

                        I stopped drinking and smoking pot many years ago. I for the most part am glad i did especially when I see people I went to high school with who continue to this day. They all look terrible and many have died especially the drinkers. I begged many of them to stop years ago but the bottom line is the only one I can change is myself.

                        I wish I could use pot for my neck I could get opioids anytime I wanted but I hate the way they make me feel and I would just rather bare the pain. I don't think the pain is good for me but I just can't function at all on prescription pain meds. I prefer to be on the side of the law that will keep me out of jail. I do feel that in a free society i feel I ought to be able to put anything i want to in my body.

                        • 5 votes
                        #22.4 - Sun Jan 8, 2012 8:59 PM EST
                        sammy sezso

                        Soc, aspirin can be lethal. It's called Reyes Syndrome. The deaths are real. The graves are cold. Yes, I think that aspirin should be upgraded to at least a Schedule III. It should not be available over the counter. It is not safe.

                        Marijuana doesn't kill, and has NEVER killed even one person is illegal, aspirin on the other hand kills people every year and can be purchased by any 4th grader, in large quantity if wanted. Yet you call for aspirin to be upgraded to only a sched. 3 which still keeps it in use and available for abuse and marijuana to be kept at a sched. 1 drug and kept out of the hands of those it can help.

                        That makes absolutely no sense. Any logical person could see that aspirin is far more dangerous than marijuana!

                        Drugs are serious business

                        Yes they are!

                        The big Pharmaceutical corporations rake in billions every year from them, and thousands of people die from abusing them every year. Their manufactured drugs that kill are legal, But the marijuana that grows wild and is part of nature is illegal, but it has never once killed anyone.

                        If you take the big pharma money out of government and get rid of their lobbyists you would see many changes in how the drugs are classified and marijuana would be legal, as it should be.

                        • 5 votes
                        #22.5 - Sun Jan 8, 2012 9:33 PM EST
                        Kyle-2710718

                        Sammy, you are making too much sense. :-)

                        Some people will never be convinced by facts.
                        Sad, ain't it?

                        • 4 votes
                        #22.6 - Sun Jan 8, 2012 10:11 PM EST
                        sammy sezso

                        I'm sorry Kyle-2710718.... :)

                        I'll try to hold the facts to minimum and maybe people can have a better chance at keeping up!.

                        Opinions without facts are worthless!

                        If people are being killed by aspirin it should be illegal!

                        Prescribe medicinal marijuana instead, at least nobody will die from it!

                        • 4 votes
                        #22.7 - Sun Jan 8, 2012 10:29 PM EST
                        Cavey Wavey

                        I fail to understand the analogy relating to wasps and marijuana. Is cool if you want to play devils advocate and get the discussion going but so far all the arguments are simply here-say and rumor. Demonizing marijuana in today's information age just makes it more attractive to people in the know. It becomes str8 laced taboo. If right wing conservatives say it is bad then it must be good. As to your argument below that marijuana kills cops, again I ask the question: If Marijuana was legal, would there be any reason for a grower to take up arms against police? I blame trafficking for the violence. As to the health consequences of Marijuana, there is more evidence that it is good for you than bad. Debate that if you like but it is true. Colorado state has a medical marijuana registry with a list of qualifying medical conditions that are eligible for a medical doctors recommendation. To me, that is medical evidence that Marijuana has health benefits. If anything, I think making the wasp illegal in order to prevent wasp stings makes about as much sense as criminalizing pot. There will still be wasps and people will still get stung, the difference is that they won't go to jail on the taxpayers dime for it.

                        • 3 votes
                        #22.8 - Mon Jan 9, 2012 12:16 AM EST
                        MeanGene-3334839

                        I fail to understand the analogy relating to wasps and marijuana. Is cool if you want to play devils advocate and get the discussion going but so far all the arguments are simply here-say and rumor. Demonizing marijuana in today's information age just makes it more attractive to people in the know.

                        People in the know, know that potheads are murderous. Whenever potheads make the news, usually they've murdered a person or three because that's just the kind of vicious damned homicidal psychopaths they are. Google "MARIJUANA MURDER" and you will get over 36 MILLION HITS because marijuana and murder go hand in glove with each other.

                        As to your argument below that marijuana kills cops, again I ask the question: If Marijuana was legal, would there be any reason for a grower to take up arms against police?

                        Yes! Absolutely! Potheads are schizophrenic and paranoid. Their brains are locked into criminal mode and they are INCAPABLE of reason, logic or lawful behavior. Their brains are COOKED. You don't find anyone more murderous than a person who has used marijuana. They kill because the Demon Weed orders them to with the voices it puts in their heads and the Devil which finds haven in their souls.

                        Colorado state has a medical marijuana registry with a list of qualifying medical conditions that are eligible for a medical doctors recommendation.

                        I'm quite familiar with Colorado. I go up there several times a year to Grand Junction. The thing with Colorado is that only 5 Doctors are responsible for over 90% of the Medical Marijuana cards, basically they're Weed Doctors. Most real doctors WILL NOT sign off on a Medical Marijuana card because they DO NOT want to risk their credentials on a pothead looking to get stoned. Cities in Colorado like Grand Junction have BANNED marijuana dispensaries because they saw that they were frauds, with 20-something stoners pretending to be sick so they could score weed.

                        If anything, I think making the wasp illegal in order to prevent wasp stings makes about as much sense as criminalizing pot.

                        I've got a can of RAID for wasps and hornets. It will drop any insect of the hymenoptera family dead inside of a second flat and it's not called murder, it's called pesticide. Potheads are far deadlier pests than hymenoptera but have a few more legal protections which I don't think they're willing to give up.

                        Marijuana is a controlled substance. It's as evil as RICIN. Do you know what RICIN is? It's the extract of a "natural plant" called the castor bean (as in castor oil). Do you know how deadly RICIN is? 500 micrograms (grain of salt, about) of RICIN is a lethal dose for most adults. RICIN is illegal, for obvious reasons. It causes people to die. Same reason that marijuana is illegal. It causes people to murder. It should not be allowed on the streets of any city.

                        • 2 votes
                        #22.9 - Mon Jan 9, 2012 1:41 AM EST
                        MeanGene-3334839

                        It depends MG are the ones being warned under your charge? Adults should be able to make their own choices and as long as they bring no harm to others it is really none of anyone's business.

                        Usually it's camping or kayaking (yes, we do have kayaking in Arizona) with people unfamiliar with the activities or the areas. When you know something that can save somebody else from harm, then it is your duty to share that knowledge rather than let another person come to harm. You'd have to be a stone-hearted cold-blooded mean bastard to let somebody get hurt while you watch in amusement instead of giving a fair warning. I'm not like that and I'd hope that you're not either.

                        We can go back to referring to the prostitute and the John the profession would not exist if there were no demand it is a free market so to say except for the laws against it. But now we drive to the black market where there comes into play human trafficking and young children. Now I do not advocate for it I think it is dangerous but 2 consenting adults ought to be able to take whatever consequences or benefits they get with no interference from me as long as they bring no harm to me or my property it is really none of my business. I recent having to pay law enforcement to run these people in. I wish it was legal all over like in Nevada. I feel everyone concerned is safer it were done that way instead of women and girls standing on the street taking such chances.

                        Prostitution is vicious. It should be illegal, because like marijuana, it takes advantage of vulnerable people who don't know the full ramifications of what they're getting into.

                        Hookers do not, generally, want to sleep with drunken old fat geezers who are cheating on their wives. What they want is money, and they are so desperate for money that they will do appalling and degrading things to get it. No woman I've met has ever said she'd like to be a prostitute and trade intimacy for money while being treated as an object by the disgusting type of man who would do so.

                        We can go back to referring to the prostitute and the John the profession would not exist if there were no demand it is a free market so to say except for the laws against it. But now we drive to the black market where there comes into play human trafficking and young children. Now I do not advocate for it I think it is dangerous but 2 consenting adults ought to be able to take whatever consequences or benefits they get with no interference from me as long as they bring no harm to me or my property it is really none of my business. I recent having to pay law enforcement to run these people in. I wish it was legal all over like in Nevada. I feel everyone concerned is safer it were done that way instead of women and girls standing on the street taking such chances.

                        I look at johns the same as I see dope dealers... predatory opportunists taking advantage of weakness to gain power over others.

                        Most Johns, like most Potheads, would be unwilling to look their own mothers in the eye and say what they've been doing. They'd be ashamed to, and for good reason. Most mothers try to raise their kids better than that.

                        I wouldn't go over to my parent's place and say "Hey Mom, I boinked Sally Streetwalker last night and boy do I feel great! Hey, do you have any penicillin left from your last prescription?"

                        What you don't understand, or don't WANT to understand, is that no man (or woman) is an island. Every prostitute is somebody's daughter. Johns are often some other woman's husband. Those little flies in the ointment are inconvenient to the whole "VICTIMLESS CRIME" mantra so adored by anarchists.

                        Are there no victims of prostitution? No kids going hungry because Daddy blew $200 on a street tramp? No wives betrayed because her husband infects her with the same STD's his favorite hooker is spreading around like Typhoid Mary? Yes, there are victims and no, it's not a victimless crime.

                        My dead brother, the one killed by marijuana, he left a grieving mother and father, he left three children (granted, he hadn't even been paying child support) and he dashed the hopes and expectations a family always has when they send a child out to make his way as a man.

                        No man is an island, and there's no such thing as a victimless crime.

                        • 1 vote
                        #22.10 - Mon Jan 9, 2012 2:22 AM EST
                        Socrates1

                        People in the know, know that potheads are murderous.

                        You are wrong. I provide two links which completely debunk that statement. You've had your say on that subject, I suggest you move on, or come up with something new.

                        I may need to review my copy of the CoH. Patently untruthful statements may be subject to deletion. Provide evidence, or make your case in another way.

                        • 5 votes
                        #22.11 - Mon Jan 9, 2012 3:00 AM EST
                        Socrates1

                        is unlawful, harmful, threatening, abusive, harassing, tortuous, defamatory, vulgar, obscene, libelous, known to be false and presented as truth, invasive of another's privacy, hateful, or racially, ethnically or otherwise objectionable;

                        I do NOT want to go that route.

                        • 2 votes
                        #22.12 - Mon Jan 9, 2012 3:04 AM EST
                        MeanGene-3334839

                        I do NOT want to go that route.

                        Wise choice, seeing as how marijuana hits "unlawful" right out of the gate.

                        • 1 vote
                        #22.13 - Mon Jan 9, 2012 3:46 AM EST
                        Socrates1

                        And, unfortunately, that comment simply indicates how playing the same one note, does not necessarily contribute to the melody.

                        • 3 votes
                        #22.14 - Mon Jan 9, 2012 9:42 PM EST
                        HydeWhyte

                        Wise choice, seeing as how marijuana hits "unlawful" right out of the gate.

                        There is nothing unlawful about discussing the merits of abolishing the prohibition against marijuana.

                        • 5 votes
                        #22.15 - Mon Jan 9, 2012 10:25 PM EST
                        Reply
                        MeanGene-3334839

                        Marijuana kills again.

                        http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/45906144/

                        Marijuana-crazed lunatic Matthew David Stewart, 37, set a deadly ambush for cops at his grow house in Ogden, Utah, wounding five cops and killing one. Marijuana and schizophrenia have long been linked, and this is one seriously schizo murderous freak cut from the same cloth as the pothead Jared Loughner, the Tuscon Assassin.

                        Most reasonable people who haven't been smoking pot would hear the police at the front door and politely ask them to state their business. Not a pot-crazed lunatic schizo, however. Nope, a demon-weed driven Matthew David Stewart laid in wait, giving no warning, making no sound, and when the police came in to serve their warrant, he laid into them with semi-auto weapons fire from behind cover in a lethal ambush.

                        That kind of thing is why pot will never be legalized in the USA. When marijuana makes the news and is involved in deadly shooting sprees involving cops and judges and members of Congress, it kind of makes the drug look bad. This is why marijuana's vaunted "LD-50" rate making it impossible to die from taking it is immaterial. People who don't touch marijuana are getting killed by the assassins who do.

                        In fact, the very word "assassin" is derived from cannabis. The etymology of the word "assassin" comed from "hashish", and as everyone knows, "hashish" is a form of cannabis. The word "assassin" means "hashish eaters" and dates from the 16th Century. Men have known for about 500 years that cannabis drives men to be cold-blooded killers. "Reefer Madness" indeed.

                        • 1 vote
                        #23 - Sat Jan 7, 2012 8:17 AM EST
                        Tex-988483

                        http://www.cato.org/raidmap/

                        • 1 vote
                        #23.1 - Sat Jan 7, 2012 4:26 PM EST
                        sammy sezso

                        An Epidemic of "Isolated Incidents"

                        That's a great link ya posted there Tex.

                        I had no idea that there are so many in the country though.

                        • 1 vote
                        #23.2 - Sat Jan 7, 2012 5:11 PM EST
                        Socrates1

                        Mean Gene...

                        I'm afraid that once again we disagree on what conclusions one should draw.

                        It was the illegality of marijuana that precipitated the incident, as well as the instability of the individual involved.

                          #23.3 - Sat Jan 7, 2012 8:02 PM EST
                          MeanGene-3334839

                          I'm afraid that once again we disagree on what conclusions one should draw.

                          It was the illegality of marijuana that precipitated the incident, as well as the instability of the individual involved.

                          I draw the same conclusion I've always drawn, that a guy willing to break one law for the fun of it is willing to break pretty much any law there is, even down to cold blooded murder of police officers.

                          Matthew David Stewart is in so much trouble for gunning down six cops that the pot grow is easily the least of his legal troubles. He's looking at a death penalty conviction right now, not just a slap on the wrist fine and some drug rehab. His life is, for all intents and purposes, over. Either he dies on death row or he spends the rest of his life behind bars, but the only way he's leaving prison is going to be stone cold dead.

                          You can't lay the blame for that on prohibition. There are lots of people who do prohibited things and don't gun down cops. Perverts busted for kiddie porn don't even sink that low, but potheads will in a heartbeat.

                          That has nothing to do with the fact that the drug is illegal and everything to do with the fact that people so morally barren as to do the drug are capable of crimes so depraved Caligula couldn't even imagine them.

                          • 1 vote
                          #23.4 - Sat Jan 7, 2012 8:47 PM EST
                          Socrates1

                          I'm afraid we continue to disagree. Your conclusions simply have no basis in reality. Nowhere did it suggest that marijuana had anything to do with the tragic events that were described. If it is your contention that it does, than I don't believe that there is any real chance of coming close to having a meaningful conversation.

                          Thank you for your participation.

                          • 2 votes
                          #23.5 - Sat Jan 7, 2012 10:08 PM EST
                          looselucy

                          Many people who are mentally ill turn to marijuana for relief of their stresses, especially those who have no health insurance. It can bring a person down from a rage or mania. It is highly unlikely that Loughner smoked a doob before he went and committed his ugly deed. Far more mass murderers, as well as very young suicide victims, have been on psychiatric prescription drugs... VTech, Columbine, Northern Illinois, Norway, and the list goes on.

                          • 3 votes
                          #23.6 - Sat Jan 7, 2012 10:29 PM EST
                          HydeWhyte

                          I always appreciate respectful conversation and exploration of subjects with just about anyone but utterly ridiculous statements such as

                          I draw the same conclusion I've always drawn, that a guy willing to break one law for the fun of it is willing to break pretty much any law there is, even down to cold blooded murder of police officers.

                          There are lots of people who do prohibited things and don't gun down cops. Perverts busted for kiddie porn don't even sink that low, but potheads will in a heartbeat.

                          That has nothing to do with the fact that the drug is illegal and everything to do with the fact that people so morally barren as to do the drug are capable of crimes so depraved Caligula couldn't even imagine them.

                          are simply the kind of nonsense I have learned are spouted from this viner on a seemingly never-ending basis. The more you talk to him (about marijuana and it's users) the more ridiculous such statements become.

                          • 5 votes
                          #23.7 - Sat Jan 7, 2012 11:19 PM EST
                          Becky-2100114

                          The more you talk to him (about marijuana and it's users) the more ridiculous such statements become.

                          As long as he remains the minority we can keep laughing and say how ridiculous it is. Wouldn't be so funny if he had a larger group though. Kinda scary.

                          • 2 votes
                          #23.8 - Sun Jan 8, 2012 12:50 AM EST
                          Socrates1

                          As someone remarked earlier, he is not alone and thus listening to his remarks might be of some value.

                          • 3 votes
                          #23.9 - Sun Jan 8, 2012 1:25 AM EST
                          Becky-2100114

                          Very true Socrates......that's why I'm hoping he'll change his mind. :)

                          • 2 votes
                          #23.10 - Sun Jan 8, 2012 1:32 AM EST
                          Lisafrequency

                          Many people who are mentally ill turn to marijuana for relief of their stresses, especially those who have no health insurance.

                          Many people with mental illness find that the drugs given for their condition make them feel like crap and do not take them even if they had insurance.

                          I am very concerned about the rise in mental illness in general something is off kilter.

                          • 1 vote
                          #23.11 - Sun Jan 8, 2012 5:58 AM EST
                          MeanGene-3334839

                          Many people with mental illness find that the drugs given for their condition make them feel like crap and do not take them even if they had insurance.

                          I am very concerned about the rise in mental illness in general something is off kilter.

                          Do you want to know what is off kilter, Lisa? Why drug abuse is increasing, why mental illness is on the rise, why school shootings are becoming a monthly event and why we're reading about a couple of cops shot dead every month like we're in a War Zone?

                          It's not the "War On Drugs". Nope. It's the "War On Poverty". Half of the children in America will sleep tonight in a home with no father under the roof. Half of marriages in America will end in divorce. Why? Because it's easier to fall into the so-called "safety net" than to tough it out as our founders and forefathers did.

                          The "War On Poverty" has rewarded failure. Single mothers get help, married mothers get none. We've created a society of "divorces for convenience" because in the Welfare State, it's far more valuable to be a single mother than a married one. This results in broken homes, which are undeniably risk factors for drug abuse, gang membership, poverty and a slew of other social ills.

                          I figure Socrates is going to say I'm off-topic, but I'm really not. The "War On Drugs" is a fundamental offshoot of the "War On Poverty" because the number one reason kids stay off drugs is that their parents would disapprove. Not parent... PARENTS. As in BOTH OF THEM.

                          Now we've got a situation where kids are only getting half the parenting they used to get (no thanks to Government replacing Daddy with a check from the taxpayers) and so they're turning out to be druggies, criminals, and killers. It's not exactly an unpredictable outcome.

                          We don't need to end the War on Drugs. Ending the War on Poverty would result in the desired outcome, less drug abuse, less poverty, fewer people winding up in jail, it would be the obvious first step to take. Legalizing drugs doesn't address the true problem, it merely masks it.

                          • 1 vote
                          #23.12 - Sun Jan 8, 2012 7:13 AM EST
                          MeanGene-3334839

                          I'm afraid we continue to disagree. Your conclusions simply have no basis in reality. Nowhere did it suggest that marijuana had anything to do with the tragic events that were described. If it is your contention that it does, than I don't believe that there is any real chance of coming close to having a meaningful conversation.

                          Thank you for your participation.

                          Soc,

                          If you've been following the story of Matthew David Stewart (37) as I have, then you'd know that his father (estranged, BTW) has been claiming that his kid, his shameful kid, shot up the cops because he needed pot to treat his Post Traumatic Stress Disorder (PTSD).

                          Basically, Pappy Stewart has been saying that his little cop-killing kiddie who he hasn't even talked to in the PAST FREAKING YEAR has mental problems because of his Army days (nevermind that the kid never saw a combat zone). With a parent as incompetent and uncaring as Michael Stewart, I really don't think the Army is to blame for Matthew David Stewart turning into a murderous cop-killing doper.

                          You've got one of two ways you can play this.

                          You can say that pot is a fabulous treatment and cure, and then explain away the fact that it didn't work for crap on this psychopathic murderer who treated himself with the Wonder Weed, or:

                          You can say that marijuana is attractive to the criminally-minded lunatic kind of guy who would gun down six cops in an ambush, but that it's just an odd coincidence that so many killings (50,000 in Mexico over the past 3 years) are willingly committed by people who smoke dope.

                          • 1 vote
                          #23.13 - Sun Jan 8, 2012 7:33 AM EST
                          MeanGene-3334839

                          Becky:

                          Very true Socrates......that's why I'm hoping he'll change his mind. :)

                          What does that mean? Does that mean you hope I'll try marijuana and alter my mind? That's not going to happen. I would rather die than pollute my soul with the Demon Weed. I don't care how much pain I'm in, when I die, I want to be myself in my own right mind and not some drug-addled space case like Michael Jackson was.

                          I have to keep my wits about me, in both professional and private life. At work, I put my hands on public safety communications systems. I make 911 work for people. Nobody wants to hear that 911 didn't work because somebody was stoned at the switch. In private life, I've got responsibilities too, I've got elderly parents and my own house to care for, and how would that be compatible with getting stoned? It simply wouldn't.

                          Am I supposed to change my mind about the people who smoke weed? That's not going to happen either. I've seen them in jail, I go into jails all the time and the guys I see locked up totally look the part. They need to be locked up. It's not that cops like to arrest people, because they don't. I've talked to probably a thousand cops and never been arrested once.

                          You've got to screw up pretty badly to get arrested.

                          Am I supposed to believe that weed is right for other people? REALLY?

                          Airline pilots fly big planes. They shouldn't do it. Bus drivers? Truck drivers? Nope, they shouldn't be stoned either. School teachers, Day Care Center workers? Parents wouldn't approve of that. Basically, there are so few professions that being stoned is acceptable, that legalization is moot.

                          Nobody with a job could get stoned. They'd be fired. Sure, they wouldn't be arrested, but they'd still be totally fired.

                          • 1 vote
                          #23.14 - Sun Jan 8, 2012 7:57 AM EST
                          Becky-2100114

                          I'm sorry that you lost your brother and that you have something to blame like weed MG. I lost my mother to cancer. Ovarian cancer. She was a devout Christian that never touch a drug. My parents were older then my friends and missed the "hippie" movement. Well, she got cancer because of nature and she took marijuana tablets and ate marijuana brownies to help ween herself off her pain medication which was HIGHLY addictive. There were NO withdrawals, it didn't alter her mind and it stimulated her appetite. I have strong feelings for it to be legal just as you do for it to be illegal. I also have MANY other reasons that I've demonstrated that show why legalization is the best decision but you're still not wooed. I know you're not alone and IF you changed your mind, you'd have influence on those around you.

                          You're one of the reasons I don't "look" like a hippie any more. That's more my style but I don't want to wear weed. If I dress like that, those like you assume that I smoke and make judgements about me because I "look" the part.....just like you said. So.....I don't do that for myself as well as my kids. I don't like being reminded every day who you people are. Judgmental people who are walking through their day generally aren't very nice or pleasant. Hey, but when I dress as I do now, they're super sweet to me and my kids. Do you see ANY logic in what I've told you?

                          • 2 votes
                          #23.15 - Sun Jan 8, 2012 9:27 AM EST
                          HydeWhyte

                          Personally, I don't care to be equated with what seem to be the kind of boys-in-the-hood gang-bangers being described in comments such as 45.5 and 45.12, just because some just happen to smoke a plant. I've never even been arrested for, much less convicted of, any kind of drug-related offense, and I smoked almost daily for more than 20 years. I always held long-term jobs and received high-performing evaluations (no pun intended), kept a roof over my family's heads, kept food on the table, and raised three children that still choose to have a very close relationship with me of their own accord. So for someone to be on here equating me with cop-killers and kiddie-porn types is more than a little offensive in my book. And any one of my kids would be straight-up in your face if they ever caught a hint of it, Gene. Luckily for others though, I'm not also one to broad-brush vast sectors of society because of the slights of a few, so I will never accuse others of the same kind of absurd insensitivity displayed in this and other threads.

                          • 5 votes
                          #23.16 - Sun Jan 8, 2012 11:02 AM EST
                          MeanGene-3334839

                          Personally, I don't care to be equated with what seem to be the kind of boys-in-the-hood gang-bangers being described in comments such as 45.5 and 45.12, just because some just happen to smoke a plant.

                          Smoking is, in and of itself, a rather disgusting practice. You actually light things on fire and suck on them? Seriously, that sort of savagery is far beneath my standards. I live in the 21st Century and have an air purifier because I don't really like polluting my lungs for recreational folly.

                          I've never even been arrested for, much less convicted of, any kind of drug-related offense, and I smoked almost daily for more than 20 years.

                          Most people who get convicted of child molestation have molested many kids before they've been caught. Most DUI drivers aren't exactly out on their first binge either. There's no pride to be had in breaking the law without getting caught.

                          I always held long-term jobs and received high-performing evaluations (no pun intended), kept a roof over my family's heads, kept food on the table, and raised three children that still choose to have a very close relationship with me of their own accord.

                          So basically, you risked a family's future for your own jollies? Why am I not impressed by that?

                          So for someone to be on here equating me with cop-killers and kiddie-porn types is more than a little offensive in my book.

                          I'm not the one making this about you. You are.

                          And any one of my kids would be straight-up in your face if they ever caught a hint of it, Gene.

                          That would be a serious mistake with my temper and my attitude towards drugs. If they're lucky, then they'll just wind up in jail. I have zero tolerance, whatsoever, for drugs and I'm not a nice guy when it comes to drugs. I'm being amazingly tolerant in holding back on what I really think of people who have smoked pot. I really don't like their putrid kind much.

                          Luckily for others though, I'm not also one to broad-brush vast sectors of society because of the slights of a few, so I will never accuse others of the same kind of absurd insensitivity displayed in this and other threads.

                          SLIGHTS OF A FEW? Everyone who has EVER SMOKED marijuana is in violation of FEDERAL LAW. They're all crooks by definition! It doesn't even matter if the law changes later, they're still lawbreakers and for the most pathetic reason of all... breaking the law for jollies! Breaking the law for the fun of it! WHEEEE!!

                          Damned potheads aren't only committing the worst crime known to man, but they're doing it for the worst damned excuse known to man to boot.

                          • 1 vote
                          #23.17 - Sun Jan 8, 2012 1:13 PM EST
                          sammy sezso

                          HEY, YOU KIDS GET OFF OF MY LAWN!

                          • 3 votes
                          #23.18 - Sun Jan 8, 2012 6:14 PM EST
                          Socrates1

                          MeanGene...I'm sorry, but if you take a look at what Christian Scientists advocate, it isn't what you suggest.

                          Just as I often defend Christians from the broad brush that so many seem to wish to use, I respectfully suggest I am doing the same thing here.

                          You need to review your logic to find the error of your ways. Whether someone is on drugs or not does not necessarily prove that one is thinking more clearly than the other.

                          • 1 vote
                          #23.19 - Sun Jan 8, 2012 6:49 PM EST
                          MeanGene-3334839

                          HEY, YOU KIDS GET OFF OF MY LAWN!

                          Very funny Sammy, but I don't see kids playing on lawns today, or any day, and potheads are why.

                          My childhood would be a horror story these days. I had the run of the neighborhood, with the full knowledge that everybody knew my name and if I got into trouble (or caused any) that my parents would be duly notified and an ass-whippin' would commence. My old man coming out to get me would be a world of hurt. My dad had full on belief in the whole "spare the rod, spoil the child" mantra, and suffice it to say, I'm not spoiled.

                          Now there are these things called "play dates". What the HELL? Parents, so concerned about their kids going out into the real world and meeting drug dealers and gangbangers and child molesters and other such miscreant opportunists have started "play dates".

                          Controlled meetings. At specific times. In specific places. Holy crap does that suck.

                          Do you know what my "play dates" were? Me and my brothers on BMX bikes at Roadrunner Park (Cactus and 32nd St in Phoenix, it's still there) ready to take on any other kids on the BMX track at anything. I could hit 25 feet in a single jump off the ramp, my brothers had the curve technique down to a science and anybody wanting a race got one. Most of the play (it was play, it was hardly a sanctioned BMX event) was random and friendly meetings. We were safe enough, we were at the park, four kids on bikes and my Spanish teacher lived across the street. I wasn't going to make trouble.

                          Now that we're a nation of strangers, yes, "HEY YOU KIDS GET OFF MY LAWN". My neighbors wouldn't have said "YOU KIDS". He'd have said "GENE". That's the difference between then and now, and what we've lost because nobody can trust a world with dope dealers in it.

                          • 1 vote
                          #23.20 - Sun Jan 8, 2012 6:55 PM EST
                          sammy sezso

                          MeanGene-3334839

                          HEY, YOU KIDS GET OFF OF MY LAWN!

                          Very funny Sammy, but I don't see kids playing on lawns today, or any day, and potheads are why.

                          My childhood would be a horror story these days. I had the run of the neighborhood, with the full knowledge that everybody knew my name and if I got into trouble (or caused any) that my parents would be duly notified and an ass-whippin' would commence. My old man coming out to get me would be a world of hurt. My dad had full on belief in the whole "spare the rod, spoil the child" mantra, and suffice it to say, I'm not spoiled.

                          For having such strict parents your brother sure did get away with alot! Why were your parents so hard on you and let your brother get so out of hand?

                          Something isn't right here, because didn't I just read a comment from you ( #22.3 ) that mentioned that your dad is a habitual gambler that is nearly broke? And something about your mother having an affair with the milkman?? Sounds like very upstanding citizens to me! I can see why you are proud of them and speak so highly about how you were raised. You couldn't get away with squat, but your brother was out running around smoking dope and drinking and stealing cars and other stuff, so they didn't keep too close of an eye on him apparently. If your brother were here I bet he would tell a different tale from what you are telling.

                          Now there are these things called "play dates". What the HELL? Parents, so concerned about their kids going out into the real world and meeting drug dealers and gangbangers and child molesters and other such miscreant opportunists have started "play dates".

                          Controlled meetings. At specific times. In specific places. Holy crap does that suck.

                          My kids have always played in their own yard, The other children always came over here because we have all the "toys" that the kids wanted to play with, skate ramps and all. You name it they have it. Everything they ever wanted I got it for them. I did that for my children so they didn't have to run the streets looking for something to do. They still stick close to home even though they are teens now. My children never needed play dates because every day is a play date for them! I made sure that their childhood was every bit as much fun and memorable as mine is, maybe even more. I have never seen any signs of drug use from my children or their friends, when I asked them about using drugs they told me they don't have time, they are too busy playing and having fun!

                          Do you know what my "play dates" were? Me and my brothers on BMX bikes at Roadrunner Park (Cactus and 32nd St in Phoenix, it's still there) ready to take on any other kids on the BMX track at anything. I could hit 25 feet in a single jump off the ramp, my brothers had the curve technique down to a science and anybody wanting a race got one. Most of the play (it was play, it was hardly a sanctioned BMX event) was random and friendly meetings. We were safe enough, we were at the park, four kids on bikes and my Spanish teacher lived across the street. I wasn't going to make trouble.

                          My children did all that right here in their yard. That way I could keep my eye on ALL of them. Apparently your Spanish teacher didn't watch out for your brother too much, did they? The whole town knowing his name didn't stop him from finding some weed did it. It didn't stop anyone from selling weed either. Good thing everyone in the town was looking out for each other's children! So maybe times weren't as good as you recall.

                          Now that we're a nation of strangers, yes, "HEY YOU KIDS GET OFF MY LAWN". My neighbors wouldn't have said "YOU KIDS". He'd have said "GENE". That's the difference between then and now, and what we've lost because nobody can trust a world with dope dealers in it.

                          No, we are not a nation of strangers. I know every one of my children's friends and their parents, we often have the neighbors over for bar-b-que and are often invited to their houses too. There is something going on almost every day. Maybe you need to get out more if you can slip past all the drug dealers and get through all the pot smoke and meet some of the people around you. Don't be afraid of your fellow Americans! You might fear them at first, but don't worry, you will win them over with your pleasant smile and great personality and informative thoughts.

                          Your comments have way more contradictions than facts!

                          This is really getting ridiculous! Too many lies and not enough facts being thrown around.

                          • 2 votes
                          #23.21 - Sun Jan 8, 2012 11:20 PM EST
                          Socrates1

                          Gene, I think I'll just have to agree with what has been said in some other comments. I disagree with your opinion. I disagree with your facts. I disagree with you logic. I disagree with your conclusions. I disagree with your blind hatred. I disagree that we should all live life "according to Gene".

                          That being said, thank you for your participation, but this comment may be considered a response to any future comments you may make that simply reflect the same points which you have already attempted to make.

                          • 3 votes
                          #23.22 - Sun Jan 8, 2012 11:25 PM EST
                          MeanGene-3334839

                          For having such strict parents your brother sure did get away with alot! Why were your parents so hard on you and let your brother get so out of hand?

                          That's the way it is on a first born son. Basically, a first born child is a parental first try, and maybe they try too hard. My parents explained it to me as being if they were strict on me then I'd be strict on my brothers in turn. It didn't work out that way. Basically it just made me mean and insular, I dived into the world of books and practically lived at the library to get the Hell out of the house with a good excuse to do so.

                          You couldn't get away with squat, but your brother was out running around smoking dope and drinking and stealing cars and other stuff, so they didn't keep too close of an eye on him apparently. If your brother were here I bet he would tell a different tale from what you are telling.

                          I joined the Navy at the age of 17 to get away from there. I hated my childhood, as did all of my brothers. I simply chose a more constructive way to escape it than drugs. All three of my brothers wound up doing drugs, getting into trouble with the law, and going to jail. Of the four children my parents had, I'm the only one with a diploma and the only one without a rap sheet.

                          Kids look for escapes. I found books. My brothers found pot. Obviously, reading books has a better life outcome than toking weed.

                            #23.23 - Mon Jan 9, 2012 2:38 AM EST
                            MeanGene-3334839

                            Gene, I think I'll just have to agree with what has been said in some other comments. I disagree with your opinion.

                            Soc, I disagree that you're a conservative. You claim to be one but your opinions are well outside the pale of the conservative lexicon. Reading your comments would identify you as a social liberal, a live-and-let-live sort of guy and any conservatism you possess would be fiscal conservatism. Basically, you'd be a libertarian, a Ron Paul type.

                            My opinion isn't just my opinion concerning marijuana. It's the LAW concerning marijuana. It's a LAW that you disagree with, and you dismiss the LAW at your own peril. People who do that tend to wind up in the hoosegow.

                            I disagree with your facts. I disagree with you logic. I disagree with your conclusions. I disagree with your blind hatred. I disagree that we should all live life "according to Gene".

                            I disagree with you wanting a glee club loving on every word you said. I disagree with your accusations of blind hatred. I hate marijuana with both eyes wide open, I'll have you know.

                            I disagree that going through life stoned is even "living life". Most of the stuff I do (kayaking, shooting, fishing) wouldn't be possible stoned. Well, maybe fishing, but I usually fish from my boat because fishing from shore just isn't as much fun. You're advocating the life of a cripple. A stoned person is a cripple. He can't drive stoned. He can't work. He can't even read, because his memory is shot. That's why potheads have comic books instead of Shakespeare.

                            That being said, thank you for your participation, but this comment may be considered a response to any future comments you may make that simply reflect the same points which you have already attempted to make.

                            That's not the case, I'm not repeating myself because I'm answering posts from other participants in your little legalization fan club here. The answers, like the queries, are unique.

                            What you don't want is disagreement. You want a little rah-rah room saying how fantastic and fabulous the world would be if all of America were like a Cheech and Chong movie.

                              #23.24 - Mon Jan 9, 2012 3:00 AM EST
                              Socrates1

                              Soc, I disagree that you're a conservative

                              That would be your right, but nobody else claims me either, and there are those who would disagree with you vehemently.

                              My opinion isn't just my opinion concerning marijuana. It's the LAW concerning marijuana. It's a LAW that you disagree with, and you dismiss the LAW at your own peril. People who do that tend to wind up in the hoosegow.

                              What's the LAW concerning marijuana? Please show me where the LAW states that marijuana causes violence.

                              I disagree with you wanting a glee club loving on every word you said.

                              Aside from "me" not being the topic, although I do seem to come up from time to time, I would assume you have some proof. I suggest you will find me much more often discussing topics with those with whom I disagree, but if you know otherwise, furnish the proof.

                              I disagree with your accusations of blind hatred. I hate marijuana with both eyes wide open, I'll have you know.

                              Perhaps, but so far you haven't shown any proof of it.

                              I disagree that going through life stoned is even "living life".

                              Sure, and where have I suggested otherwise?

                              That's why potheads have comic books instead of Shakespeare.

                              There's that nasty little question about proof again.

                              What you don't want is disagreement.

                              No, what I don't want is irrational disagreement, ranting, derailing,personal attacks,and any behavior that I consider to be counter productive to a realistic examination of a particular subject. I wish to examine a subject with a minimum amount of emotion and a maximum amount of rational thinking with everything on the table. THAT is what makes me a Conservative.

                              You want a little rah-rah room saying how fantastic and fabulous the world would be if all of America were like a Cheech and Chong movie.

                              Can I quote you on that?

                              Reading your comments would identify you as a social liberal, a live-and-let-live sort of guy and any conservatism you possess would be fiscal conservatism. Basically, you'd be a libertarian, a Ron Paul type.

                              And that?

                              • 3 votes
                              #23.25 - Mon Jan 9, 2012 3:28 AM EST
                              MeanGene-3334839

                              That would be your right, but nobody else claims me either, and there are those who would disagree with you vehemently.

                              Apparently not you, because your listed groups has you as a member of libertarians. I don't know why you'd even bother to disagree with me about you being a social liberal. You practically wear it on your sleeve. I am not a social liberal. I am an authoritarian who believes that no man is an island and that there is no such thing as a victimless crime. Even flushing your toilet means somebody else is going to deal with your crap.

                              What's the LAW concerning marijuana? Please show me where the LAW states that marijuana causes violence.

                              The law is reactive, not proactive. It does not come into play until AFTER the violence. It's like rape, in that you can't arrest a man for rape just because he has a penis. The crime has to happen first, and then the law comes into effect.

                              As for the violence, even though you don't want to hear it... Cannabis users are four times more likely to commit violence and twice as likely to commit violence than alcohol users.

                              Use your common sense here. Why in the heck is it that 800,000 marijuana users get their asses arrested every year in the USA? Do you think the cops are just AMAZING in their abilities to pick out a pothead from the THOUSANDS of people they see every day? Wow, what a SUPERCOP!

                              I deal with cops all the time. I kind of work on police radio systems, so me talking to a cop is not exactly an unusual event. Cops are not exceptional people, just folks like you and I with no superpowers or psychic abilities at all. So, if potheads are getting arrested, then it's not because of fabulous police work... it's because they're atrocious screwups.

                              You've actually got to WORK AT IT in order to attract the attention of a cop. You have to be doing something incredibly outrageous to get a cop looking your way. Most speeding tickets are for 10 MPH over the limit. Most arrests are for felonies. These potheads going to jail were NOT just sitting at home watching Cartoon Network reruns and hurting nobody. They were out on the street where the cops are watching.

                              No, what I don't want is irrational disagreement, ranting, derailing,personal attacks,and any behavior that I consider to be counter productive to a realistic examination of a particular subject. I wish to examine a subject with a minimum amount of emotion and a maximum amount of rational thinking with everything on the table. THAT is what makes me a Conservative.

                              You are a subscriber to a pro-marijuana forum. I know exactly what your bias is, and yes, you have been biased. You haven't challenged anyone for the legalization of pot for proof, but you're constantly hounding opponents with PROVE IT PROVE IT PROVE IT in an effort to try and make it too much work to disagree with you.

                              You've got a computer same as I do (well, probably not with twin screens and a 200W per channel Dolby Surround system) and you might disprove me with a simple search on Google, and yet you don't even try to. Why not? Because disproving me is not your goal, chasing me off is. I've been giving links the whole time, and how many have you checked out?

                              You don't accept disagreement. You expected a rah-rah room where everybody responding would be a pothead and be all for toking it up and turning the USA into one big opium den.

                              I ain't what you expected.

                                #23.26 - Mon Jan 9, 2012 4:32 AM EST
                                sammy sezsoDeleted
                                HydeWhyte

                                MeanGene

                                You actually light things on fire and suck on them?

                                Past tense would be correct. I used to but I quit. I know that doesn't make any difference to you though. I've read your comments on this as well as other threads and remember you said something to the effect that anyone who ever smoked even once was no different than any other pothead.

                                I live in the 21st Century

                                Newsflash: we all live in the same century. We haven't mastered time travel just yet.

                                I'm not the one making this about you. You are.

                                No need to be dishonest, Gene. I've smoked pot so you call me a pothead, and you said that people who break the law for the fun of it (aka potheads in this context) are "willing to break pretty much any law there is, even down to cold-blooded murder of police officers" hence you made it about me.

                                Socrates1...It was the illegality of marijuana that precipitated the incident, as well as the instability of the individual involved.

                                MeanGene...I draw the same conclusion I've always drawn, that a guy willing to break one law for the fun of it is willing to break pretty much any law there is, even down to cold blooded murder of police officers.

                                Just a reminder.

                                That would be a serious mistake with my temper and my attitude towards drugs.

                                A hot temper is not a useful tool when facing my son, Gene. It's just a hypothetical of course, but I would suggest keeping as level of a head as you are capable of, should such an event ever occur. Not implying you would lose of course. Chances are that you could very well be an Apollo Creed and Rocky Balboa all rolled into one. Even still, the next day you'd still know you had been in a scrap.

                                Damned potheads aren't only committing the worst crime known to man, but they're doing it for the worst damned excuse known to man to boot.

                                Yeah, there was that time just sitting back and enjoying a nice sunny day on the steps to the DEA building in Dallas. I still get a good chuckle out of that one.

                                • 2 votes
                                #23.28 - Mon Jan 9, 2012 2:48 PM EST
                                looselucy

                                Thanks for that link, Sammy. I am a legal medical marijuana patient in Colorado. I was the pedestrian in a vehicle vs pedestrian accident over 20 years ago (I was 19 years old), I have had issues with chronic pain my entire adult life, back, hips, and neck. I, like many others, do not like how opiate based painkillers affect me (side effects include painful constipation and horrendous itchiness all over the body, as well as so dopey/lightheaded I cannot even stand up). Also for most of those 20 years I have not had health insurance, though I have been employed for most of that time(took a couple of years off when I had a child). Medical marijuana works for me. Edibles are far more effective than smoking, I can get work done without having to stop because of the pain, AND I can sleep restfully without pain, neither of which is possible without it. If I took enough OTC painkillers to have that effect I'd probably have died of liver failure years ago. If I eat an extra cookie it isnt going to kill me. My driving record is cleaner than anyone else I know, one speeding ticket back in 1988 when I'd had my license for not quite 3 months, no accidents ever.

                                Municipalities here that did not instate bans on MMJ Dispensaries are now rejoicing the sales tax revenue they bring in. Less than 3% of Colorado's citizens are legal patients, and sales taxes from dispensaries topped 2.2 Million last year, a small glimpse of what tax revenue could be if legalized (for adults).

                                • 3 votes
                                #23.29 - Mon Jan 9, 2012 3:22 PM EST
                                Socrates1

                                Sammy...I'm sorry, but anytime one couples the terms whore and mother I'm pretty sure I'm going to consider deleting the comment. Lots of good points, but a bit too personal.

                                Thanks for your understanding.

                                MeanGene....

                                The excerpt you provide is the only thing close to proving what you suggest, except there is no link to the study in question. Until then, it's just another claim that has been debunked by studies which can be examined...ie. the ones I linked.

                                • 1 vote
                                #23.30 - Mon Jan 9, 2012 9:54 PM EST
                                sammy sezso

                                sammy sezsoDeleted :(

                                Socrates1

                                Sammy...I'm sorry,

                                Sometimes the blunt truth hurts.

                                My comment was well within the CoH, 1) It was not a personal attack. 2) It was merely stating what has already been said in previous comments. It was just the blunt truth, raw and uncut.

                                You're the censor moderator. It's your seed. It's your call.

                                I'm not going to argue over it. It's just not worth it.

                                Later.

                                • 1 vote
                                #23.31 - Tue Jan 10, 2012 1:30 AM EST
                                Socrates1

                                I believe I responded elsewhere to your concerns. I admit to bending over backwards in an attempt to avoid simply allowing my personal bias to determine what comments should be allowed to remain.

                                I also admit that I realized I might need to be a little more proactive after two other comments were deleted by Newsvine Moderators prior to my even really reviewing them.

                                It is what it is....thank you for your participation, and as I said, the one post was filled with really good information.

                                • 1 vote
                                #23.32 - Tue Jan 10, 2012 2:07 AM EST
                                Reply
                                MeanGene-3334839

                                Becky,

                                I'm sorry that you lost your brother and that you have something to blame like weed MG. I lost my mother to cancer.

                                Death knocks on every door. My brother was 39 when he died (38, actually, he died the day before his 39th Birthday) but what marijuana did was worse than death... it robbed him of what short life he had. Sure, he was 39 years old, but he'd spent nearly half of his adult life in jail and during what little freedom he had, he was stone cold broke.

                                I'm sorry about your Mother, but she probably lived a far better life than my brother's miserable existence of poverty, crimes and drugs.

                                She was a devout Christian that never touch a drug. My parents were older then my friends and missed the "hippie" movement. Well, she got cancer because of nature and she took marijuana tablets and ate marijuana brownies to help ween herself off her pain medication which was HIGHLY addictive.

                                I wouldn't do either. The most painful surgery I ever had was my vasectomy and I never took so much as an aspirin for the pain because I simply do not believe in drugs at all. Pain is good, it's a natural body response which attracts attention to problem areas and promotes healing. When diabetics lose their feet to sores, it's because they felt no pain until the infections turn to gangrene on them. Pain exists for a purpose, it's a defense mechanism. Without it, you could bleed to death from a paper cut and never know it until you drop stone cold dead.

                                I have strong feelings for it to be legal just as you do for it to be illegal. I also have MANY other reasons that I've demonstrated that show why legalization is the best decision but you're still not wooed. I know you're not alone and IF you changed your mind, you'd have influence on those around you.

                                No, I wouldn't. The people around me, in my profession, make a living on their brainpower, on their intellect. Seriously, the guys I work with, I could go over a schematic for anything electronic and they (like me) could read it like a book. I'm an electronics communications engineer, so I need my mind firing on all cylinders all the time or I couldn't do my job at all.

                                I'm not going to make an argument to people who make their livings on their brainpower that impairment of the brain is a grand idea. That's not going to fly. I'm literally talking to rocket scientists and I'm not going to tell them that brain functionality is optional.

                                You're one of the reasons I don't "look" like a hippie any more. That's more my style but I don't want to wear weed. If I dress like that, those like you assume that I smoke and make judgements about me because I "look" the part.....just like you said. So.....I don't do that for myself as well as my kids.

                                I don't "look" disheveled for the basic reason of how I was raised. My mother would inspect us kids before we left the house, and remind us that even though we were kids, we represented her household and that our appearances were a reflection on all of us as a family. Growing up in the small town of Wellington, KS (south of Wichita) I was known as "Chuck's Boy" and in a small town like that, everyone knows everyone's business, even down to their kids. I couldn't get away with anything. The entire town knew me and every other kid in town, and that's how I was raised. It was a different time and place than today. Being one of the "good boys" I pretty much had the run of the town, so long as I behaved properly the way I was raised.

                                So.....I don't do that for myself as well as my kids. I don't like being reminded every day who you people are. Judgmental people who are walking through their day generally aren't very nice or pleasant. Hey, but when I dress as I do now, they're super sweet to me and my kids. Do you see ANY logic in what I've told you?

                                Of course I do. What you say is true, basically you're saying that first impressions matter a lot. That's very true, and in fact it's pretty easily proven with a simple visit to a local McDonald's.

                                Look at the cashiers, and look at whom the customers go to when they have their choice of people to deal with. It's nowhere close to random. What you'll observe, all the time and every time, is customers making a beeline to the most professional-looking cashier available. Why? Because they're the most likely to get the order straight and be communicative, that's why.

                                I know "profiling' is a great evil, but we all do it so why not just admit it? I've been in Hispanic shops and heard them speaking in Spanish (I've taken 6 years of Spanish, I can keep up just fine) and the minute they see me and address me, it's in English, all the time, every time. They just "profiled" me and figured out that I'm an American because I'm a lot taller than the average Hispanic (6' tall) and my eyes are lightning blue, shockingly so. That, and I wear nice clothes, as even my cheap T-shirts are Calvin Klein. I don't buy junk. So, I get "profiled".

                                Like it or not, you are going to be "profiled". You will be judged on the way you look, and you will be treated how you look. If you don't put forth any effort into your grooming and attire, then why would anybody treat you the same as someone who has some semblence of self-respect?

                                You have to respect yourself before you can expect anyone else to respect you.

                                • 1 vote
                                Reply#24 - Sun Jan 8, 2012 10:29 AM EST
                                Becky-2100114

                                Oh my gosh.....you're in Wellington? I'm in WICHITA, KS!!!!! We have oil wells in Dexter and are out there all the time.

                                Good thing I didn't read that before I headed to church.

                                I understand that I'm going to be profiled, that's exactly WHY I don't dress that way because it is a reality. That's why I said I don't like being reminded of that daily. I worked in radio advertising so I understand profiling. We did that to "target" the desired audience. Do you think I'm not very bright? That seems to be the case. lol

                                • 2 votes
                                #24.1 - Sun Jan 8, 2012 5:47 PM EST
                                Becky-2100114

                                Man......I bet you DESPISE Winfield and the people in it. Big time hippies!

                                • 1 vote
                                #24.2 - Sun Jan 8, 2012 5:51 PM EST
                                MeanGene-3334839

                                Oh my gosh.....you're in Wellington? I'm in WICHITA, KS!!!!! We have oil wells in Dexter and are out there all the time.

                                Good thing I didn't read that before I headed to church.

                                Becky, I'm not in Wellington. I grew up there as my Dad worked for Beech Aircraft and we were raised there. I live in Phoenix, Arizona, the fifth largest city in the USA and the largest capitol city of any state in the USA, but Phoenix is a bit like Wellington... it's the biggest small town in the world.

                                The population seems huge, but you're talking about a city with 495 square miles and practically no skyscrapers. Phoenix is actually a collection of villages moreso than what most people would consider a "city". That's why I still live here. It's a small town. You can drive for an hour and still be in the city limits, but it's a small town atmosphere.

                                I think a lot of crime in the city is due to an expectation of anonymity. Kids think nobody will recognize them, crooks think that they can steal a car and nobody will notice the wrong person is behind the wheel, but that's not the case in a small town which is why there's less crime and drugs in a small town.

                                When there's no expectation of anonymity, people tend to behave better. For example, I was at the bowling alley and I heard my name being asked for at the counter. It was some guys I knew, and they'd recognized my truck. My truck is nothing special, it's an F-150 common as mud but they recognized the guns in the gun rack. They knew it had to be mine.

                                Most crimes are crimes of opportunity. Crooks don't commit crimes where they'll be identified and crooks don't commit crimes when they know that they'll be caught. That's why small towns don't suffer much crime. Everybody knows who lives where, everybody knows who drives what, and the chances of getting away with a crime like smoking pot is nearly zero because it stinks to high heaven and the neighbors know who did it.

                                • 1 vote
                                #24.3 - Sun Jan 8, 2012 7:14 PM EST
                                Reply
                                Becky-2100114

                                I couldn't get all the way through your post because you made me cry. Try getting your abdomen cut from neck to pelvis and talk to me about your pain level and how you're "embracing" it.

                                I had a double mastectomy with reconstruction last January followed by a hysterectomy so don't talk to me about pain being good.

                                Those choices that you made in life were because you believed it to be right, it had nothing to do with whether or not it was legal. Same with my mother and myself. Your brother CHOSE to live the life he led. No one made him do it......not even pot!

                                I'm out.....I can't handle you any more and don't want to get suspended for calling you names. You walk a VERY thin line yet......little reprimand. The US of A stands for freedom. Have you forgotten that?

                                • 5 votes
                                Reply#25 - Sun Jan 8, 2012 11:07 AM EST
                                Lisafrequency

                                I couldn't get all the way through your post because you made me cry. Try getting your abdomen cut from neck to pelvis and talk to me about your pain level and how you're "embracing" it.

                                I guess MG is one of those people who would let his child die if they needed medicine.

                                • 4 votes
                                #25.1 - Sun Jan 8, 2012 12:41 PM EST
                                MeanGene-3334839

                                I guess MG is one of those people who would let his child die if they needed medicine.

                                I've never been stupid enough to have a child. I got a vasectomy before I was 21 because my experience in school with other children was so bad that I never, ever wanted to see a child again in my life. I've despised children ever since I met my first bully. The only difference between children and other pests is that you can't find an exterminator for the two-legged vermin. You have to pretend to like them and support them. I don't really like kids at all. Bullies made damned sure I had a bad attitude towards all kids.

                                • 1 vote
                                #25.2 - Sun Jan 8, 2012 12:50 PM EST
                                Becky-2100114

                                How sad you are. Children are a blessing. I see now, you're not just mean when it comes to pot.....you're just mean......period. This world has people of all types and that includes you. I want to go back to pretending you're not out there, scaring all the neighborhood children though. No one can change your unhappiness but you. Good luck to ya' and you're in my prayers. Big time!

                                And no.....I don't care if I have violated the COH. It's worth it in this case.....needed to be said.

                                • 4 votes
                                #25.3 - Sun Jan 8, 2012 2:18 PM EST
                                MeanGene-3334839

                                I couldn't get all the way through your post because you made me cry. Try getting your abdomen cut from neck to pelvis and talk to me about your pain level and how you're "embracing" it.

                                I've broken my arm, I've been hit with tear gas, I've been electrocuted, I've been in several car accidents and never once did I have the benefit of a painkiller beforehand. Pain is how you know when your arm is broken, and when your neck has been snapped in a car accident. Pain is useful information.

                                I had a double mastectomy with reconstruction last January followed by a hysterectomy so don't talk to me about pain being good.

                                The only reason you'd know to go to the doctor in the first place is pain. If not for pain, then you'd probably be dead.

                                Those choices that you made in life were because you believed it to be right, it had nothing to do with whether or not it was legal. Same with my mother and myself. Your brother CHOSE to live the life he led. No one made him do it......not even pot!

                                Wrong answer, Becky. My brother was only 14 years old when he got suckered into trying marijuana. A 14-year-old boy is a CHILD. He's not old enough to drive, he's not old enough to vote, he's not old enough to even sign up for a credit card so no, he didn't make the choice. He was an impressionable boy lured into a life of evil by despicable potmongers. He did not, and could not, at that tender young age, understand the depravity of the dope dealers who molested his mind with their vile and contemptible wares.

                                I'm out.....I can't handle you any more and don't want to get suspended for calling you names. You walk a VERY thin line yet......little reprimand. The US of A stands for freedom. Have you forgotten that?

                                Becky, I'm a US Navy veteran. I teach citizenship classes to Vietnamese refugees as a volunteer. For you to tell me what the USA is about borders on ridiculous. Let me tell you something about liberties, something which you don't seem to understand.

                                Liberty and Responsibility are two sides of the same coin. You cannot hold one side without also holding the other side. Every liberty you have comes with a responsibility on the obverse. If you do something irresponsible (like getting high) then you shall lose your grip on liberty because of that irresponsibility. If you drive drunk, if you shoplift, if you abuse your liberty in any irresponsible manner at all, then you shall lose the coin. You cannot hold the coin of liberty without also holding responsibility.

                                How sad you are. Children are a blessing.

                                The people who say so are the people who have kids and say it because misery loves company. Over half the children born in the USA are "whoops" children, unintended pregnancies. Most people, if given the option, would never have kids on purpose.

                                I see now, you're not just mean when it comes to pot.....you're just mean......period.

                                Sure, I'm mean, but I'm honest about it. Would you rather I pretended to be nice and then surprised you? I don't work that way, I don't fake my way through and pretend to be friends with people who aren't my friends. Sometimes honesty is brutal. So be it, it's still the best policy.

                                • 1 vote
                                #25.4 - Sun Jan 8, 2012 2:56 PM EST
                                Becky-2100114

                                Sure, I'm mean, but I'm honest about it. Would you rather I pretended to be nice and then surprised you?

                                Nope, I wouldn't. That's about the only thing I respect about you so far. I'm like you in that way. hahaha You met your match buddy! I'd rather a bigot be a bigot then pretend. I have three children by the same father. All five of us live under the same roof and two out of the three were planned. Baby Jack was surprise and a blessing in disguise. We aren't miserable at all. I found out when I had children how to give selflessly. Something you seem yet to learn.

                                • 3 votes
                                #25.5 - Sun Jan 8, 2012 3:14 PM EST
                                Becky-2100114

                                BTW, I had no pain prior to my mastectomies. My mother carried the BRAC1 and BRAC2 cancer gene which is why she died of ovarian cancer. I was tested last year and found out I too carry it. I went to the doctor because I am high risk. I beat cancer to the punch so I WON'T die like my mother. Two months after my test, I had my first surgery. Yes, I took pain medication but I still didn't escape the pain. It was overwhelming even with the medication. Call me a wimp, I don't care but I believe God gave us resources that we can put to good us with proper judgement.

                                Also, your brother was still a child, yes but that doesn't excuse him. He still knew the difference between right and wrong. My children know. You're not holding HIM very responsible for his actions and choices. You're saying it's not his fault. You're pretty forgiving of him but not anyone else.

                                • 3 votes
                                #25.6 - Sun Jan 8, 2012 3:20 PM EST
                                Midnight Toker 4+20

                                Well that's one thing MeanGreen posted that I applaud. Getting the snip so he cannot contaminate the rest of the world. Proud of you dude.

                                • 4 votes
                                #25.7 - Mon Jan 9, 2012 5:36 PM EST
                                Socrates1

                                C'mon....I've already either deleted, or had Newsvine delete, more comments here than in my entire history as a member of Newsvine. Help me out here.

                                • 2 votes
                                #25.8 - Mon Jan 9, 2012 9:56 PM EST
                                Reply
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