Should Christians Be Allowed to Wish You A Merry Christmas On Public Lands-Poll Included

The thing is, regarding your wife, how is that any different than putting a Nativity Scene on the front lawn?

Well, no one sees inside her cubicle and none of it is bought with government money. The back (where the cubicles are) is locked to the public.

The thing is, regarding your wife, how is that any different than putting a Nativity Scene on the front lawn?

She's not killing the lawn.

It depends on the locale of the Fed facility really.

A lot of people decorate their cubes and workspaces with Christmas stuff, they have Christmas parties with Christmas themed music and activities, and sometimes someone even says a prayer over the food at these sort of gatherings.

This stuff isn't paid for w/ fed money though, not even the office parties - although sometimes they can take place during gov't hours under the guise of the occassional allotted social function. The food and anything else are paid for w/ donations, employee fundraisers, and just direct payments. They are not mandatory either... you're welcome to continue working =P

glattu, grok, prok man sing

People who are highly offended by simple words like "Merry Christmas" or even " Happy Holidays" are typically unhappy people looking for something to bitch about

The same could be said who believe that there is a "War on Christmas".

I'm highly annoyed by fanatics who get over zealous about their conceived ideas about what separation between Church and State mean.

There's a long list of well established judicial precedence regarding what separation of church and state entails. Individual displays, even by government workers, are clearly allowed. I see far more issues of confusion from the side that wants official government displays of religion, which is a wide swath of the population, than with the occasional confused secularist who other than the random anecdote like that found above, I've never seen in person and certainly doesn't seem to be part of any large movement.

Agreed nica, the "War on Christmas" is silly, in fact outrageous. There is no war, the Christians won, or should we say Christmas won. I know those of many faiths and those without faith at all who observe some sort of holiday celebration, maybe its not Christmas as some Christians would like it to be but who cares? LOL

I don't understand why people can't just let others have their own personal believe system (or not) and enjoy their own.

I guess you are speaking about the fruit cake as present issue? :)

Of course answer a question with a question. Should an employer just accept the loss of an account because an employee insulted a client?

I do not think religion should be an issue of employment, however if the employer loses business, then if it is a small business how much should they lose?

So if you had a Jewish customer that took offense at being wished a "Merry Christmas" you would rather lose money than an employee (or even suggesting the employee tone down his wishes with certain customers)?

AND BTW - answering questions with questions instead of answers is NOT a good way to run a thread, but that is my opinion.

Nah, you just like being caught in a "catch 22" saying people should be able to wish others Merry Christmas without reprimand, but also think that employers should be able to fire them for just that...

I won't bother you anymore, so you can go on with your sack cloth & ashes routine...

Interesting. Are you suggesting that the employer should have the right to discriminate based on religion?

That's not necessarily illegal religious discrimination per the Civil Rights Act. If I fire anyone of any religion for violating a company policy that states religion isn't to be discussed that's entirely valid in most situations. It's only illegal if I only selectively enforce it against one religious group, be it Christians, Jews, atheists, etc. You're not firing them because of their religion, you're firing them for violating company policy.

Socrates and Nica,

What both of you are forgetting in your hypothetical, is HOW WILL ANYONE KNOW WHO IS WHAT RELIGION?

how can a government worker offend a client if they don't know what religion they are in the first place?

Unless the proverbial Jewish client came in wearing a Yarmuke and stoll with the Star of David on it, how would they know? Even if they guessed the person was Jewish by the surname. The appropriate greeting is always "Happy Holidays." This allows you to greet anyone of any relgion without excluding, or offenfing anyone.

Who gives a crap, if someone get's offended for saying Merry Xmas to them, screw them.

I am Atheist and don't really mind Christmas because religion seems to have little to do with Christmas anymore. It's more of a tool to brainwash Children and always has been.

If someone says Merry Christmas to me I say Merry Christmas right back.

If someone says Happy Hanukkah I say Merry Christmas lol

What is the point of this seed again.

Who gives a crap, if someone get's offended for saying Happy Holidays to them, screw them.

Seriously, the whole thing is stupid and blown way out of proportion.

Who gives a crap, if someone get's offended for saying Happy Holidays or Merry Christmas to them, screw them.

I'd say the same thing except thus:

• Who gives a crap, if someone get's offended for saying Happy Holidays or Merry Christmas to them, screw them.

I guess we can thank Bill O'Reilly for starting this whole "war on Christmas" crap. Who cares? Say Merry Christmas or not, say anything. I don't get any of this manufactured bs.

People get waaaaaaaay to hypersensitive about this

Too true. Do those offended decline their 3 or 4 day holiday weekend I wonder? Complain about 'Christmas', but take the holiday - can you say Hypocrite

Complain about 'Christmas', but take the holiday - can you say Hypocrite

What exactly is someone supposed to do when the company shuts down? How is it hypocritical to not work when you literally can't work?

And you do realize that not EVERYONE gets Christmas off. BTW I take the 21st off for my holiday which is the Winter Solstice. Many Jews take Christmas because it falls within their holiday - so I guess not too hypocritical for many people that are not Christians.

Government workers should be prohibited from saying that phrase because it recognizes a religious holiday.

Isn't that an infringement of their "Freedom of Speech? Or Freedom of Expression?

An employer may have to take action if an employee offends a lucrative customer,

Ridiculous! If wishing someone a Merry Christmas is offensive then that person needs to lighten up! It IS Christmas time you know!

Polka - why? Where is there anything n the Constitution about verbally "recognizing" a religious holiday? Does that somehow "establish" religion? Nope.

I am a Libertarian and believe in the separation of church and state AS WRITTEN INTO THE CONSTITUTION, but its been taken to an absurd level.

Free speech uber alles!

Isn't that an infringement of their "Freedom of Speech? Or Freedom of Expression?

No. It prevents the government from intimidating citizens that don't celebrate that particular religious holiday and it prevents the intentional or unintentional promotion of Christmas as the pseudo official religious holiday of the state.

Ridiculous! If wishing someone a Merry Christmas is offensive then that person needs to lighten up! It IS Christmas time you know!

Many don't celebrate Christmas. A good business person would recognize this and wouldn't assume that all their clients celebrate Christmas.

Where is there anything n the Constitution about verbally "recognizing" a religious holiday? Does that somehow "establish" religion? Nope.

It is the promotion of government protection of religion. Christian holidays should be given no special protection or recognition by the state.

People want majority rule. They want democracy. The majority of the people in this country don't care one way or another and/or support people saying Merry Christmas. End of story.

The wishes of the majority are not relevant. The government must represent all citizens. Deciding to represent Christians only is a serious problem.

i pay taxes and as a citizen i will say merry Christmas where ever the hell i want to.........

spend tax money to arrest me..............snark

i pay taxes and as a citizen i will say merry Christmas where ever the hell i want to.........

As a citizen you can say that and I can ignore you or respond with "happy holidays". If you are a government official then I would report you to your superiors.

do it...........cause i have done it..................snark

damn the govt does own people...............

Polka14:

ok using your arguments, be honest now, would you support a Muslim government worker being fired because they worked less hours than the job required due to praying multiple times per day?? or would you support them being fired because they wanted to wear a burka which may violate a dress code?

Be honest now, I want to make sure you want to apply your religion neutral rules for government employees equally and not be a hypocrite.

what about govt workers (Jewish) who get religious days off.........because of religion?????

cause that happens in DC

Polka - PROTECTION of religion by muttering "Merry Christmas?" PROTECTION? No. That's NOT what the establishment clause is all about. However, the "Free exercise" clause is about prohibiting the government from interfering in a person's practice of religion. Go the government telling me I can't SAY Merry Chrismas is a violation of the free exercise clause, IMO

be honest now, would you support a Muslim government worker being fired because they worked less hours than the job required due to praying multiple times per day?? or would you support them being fired because they wanted to wear a burka which may violate a dress code?

The government may not recognize any religious ideals or customs. It is a serious violation of the Constitution. Religious customs should not be a reason to work less hours.

PROTECTION of religion by muttering "Merry Christmas?" PROTECTION?

It promotes religion and protects it through government special recognition of its customs.

Government workers should be prohibited from saying that phrase because it recognizes a religious holiday.

It's a national holiday as well.

Please see the below list of federal holidays listed on the US Office of Personnel Management's website

December 31, 2010* New Year's Day
January 17 Birthday of Martin Luther King, Jr.
February 21** Washington's Birthday
May 30 Memorial Day
July 4 Independence Day
September 5 Labor Day
October 10 Columbus Day
November 11 Veterans Day
November 24 Thanksgiving Day
December 26*** Christmas Day

*** December 25, 2011 (the legal public holiday for Christmas Day)

Polka

The government may not recognize any religious ideals or customs

- that is absolutely NOT true. The government may not ESTABLISH a "government" religion. The Senate itself opens each session with a Prayer. The Senate actually has its own CHAPLAIN, as does the U S House of Representatives.

There are Bible and Torah studies - HELD BY the chaplains, Muslim prayer services, Latter Day Saints Scripture studies, Rosary groups, etc.

So PLEASE don't tell me that it is a violation of the Constitution.

So PLEASE don't tell me that it is a violation of the Constitution.

They are. I don't care if the government disregards it.

It's a national holiday as well.

Based on religion. It is unconstitutional.

so why does the military provide places of worship???????

The government may not recognize any religious ideals or customs.

The recognition of religion is hardly unconstitutional. Establish and recognize are far from synonymous. Also, promote and recognize are also far from synonymous as well. Recognizing a holiday that the overwhelmingly vast majority of the population celebrates, religious in its origins or not, is hardly unconstitutional, and about 140 years worth of Supreme Court Justices seem to agree with me.

Recognizing a holiday that the overwhelmingly vast majority of the population celebrates, religious in its origins or not, is hardly unconstitutional

Any government representation of religious customs is completely unjustified. The government shouldn't be allowed to participate in religious customs because the state can't follow religions. It is against equal representation and the first amendment.

It is against equal representation and the first amendment.

Fortunately, it isn't.

so why does the military provide places of worship???????

For the same reason that the military provides places to sleep.

all you atheists, can cover your ears now..........Merry Christmas!!!!!!!

People want majority rule. They want democracy. The majority of the people in this country don't care one way or another and/or support people saying Merry Christmas.

People most certainly don't want majority rule when it comes to government. They want basic fundamental rights upheld no matter who is in power. Majority rule leads to the 51% taking away all rights from the 49% and establishing a class system in society.

Andrew-1162039:

The problem is people want majority rule for certain things and not others and that is an issue because who gets to decide which policies and actions should be enacted based on majority rule.

They want basic fundamental rights upheld no matter who is in power

True, except those in power care more about re-election and pleasing their voting public than what is fundamentally right. Until that changes, there is no such thing as fundamental rights that stand above political parties and who whines the loudest. At least there are very few beyond the obvious of human rights and certain violent crimes, etc...

Keeping the government from publicly endorsing one religion, while simultaneously upholding the rights of all individuals to believe and practice their religion as they see fit is one of those fundamental rights.

True, except those in power care more about re-election and pleasing their voting public than what is fundamentally right.

Thank goodness amendments to our constitution, which contains what we've established as our most fundamental of rights, requires a 3/4ths rather than simple 50% majority, otherwise the pandering and instability in government would be immense. Just look at the referendum amendment process to California's constitution for evidence on that one.

Uh, we don't have majority rule in this country. That's the entire point of a REPRESENTATIVE Democracy as opposed to a pure democracy. Our FFs specifically set up a system to try to avoid the tyranny or the majority.

Sorry to be pedantic, but status as a "representative democracy" doesn't preclude "majority rule". What precludes "majority rule" in the United States is the fact that it is (also) a "constitutional republic". As you alluded to, it is specifically the US Constitution that prohibits the majority imposing its will on the minority. So you're correct in what you assert, just for a different reason than you stated.

The point of the Bill of Rights is to protect the rights of the minority from the majority.

It's not about majority rule - it's about protecting the rights of all citizens equally.

Atheists know this. It is the religionist that tends to make the fallacious 'majority rule' argument.

Opposing ones will in terms of "join" or be cast aside is one thing. No government employee is forcing anyone to practice their religion or demonizing any other religion or lack thereof by saying Merry Christmas. Freedom of religion is freedom to practice ones religious beliefs in a manner than is not harmful to others or the environment, it is NOT freedom from religion.

Just as an atheist has all the right to say Happy Solstice, another has all the rights to say Merry Christmas, and another has all the rights to say Happy Hanukkah etc....

next i am going to be called racist for wearing black shoes...........damn it is getting way too complicated to be happy or Merry..............

The side doing the most complaining is the Christian conservative crowd, crying that private businesses wish them a Happy Holidays instead of a Merry Christmas, then declaring it a war on Christmas rather than what it actually is, prudent corporate policy.

hey and don't forget it's good for the economy..........Merry Christmas!!!!!!!!!

good eating too!!!!!!!!!!

lots of family too!!!!!!!!!

what's not to love about the season?????????

what's not to love about the season?????????

The extra 10 pounds I didn't have before the season?

bah!!!!!!! humbug...........not really i don't care

until i can button my pants..........damn!!!!!!!! lol,lol,lol

Have we really reached the pathetic point where simply saying Merry Christmas causes this much fallout?

No, we've reached the pathetic point where simply saying Happy Holidays causes this much fallout

No - let's keep this real. It isn't the saying of words that causes any fall-out. It is only the lack of consideration for others that causes fall-out. One may be signaled by the other, but that doesn't move the logical location of the cause.

That consideration has to go both ways. Why can't a salutation just be appreciated--regardless of the words. I don't care if some one says "Have a good one", "Happy Holidays", "Merry Christmas", or "Happy Solstice". Where is the problem? Why does it have to be "Merry Christmas" or the whining starts?

Works both ways....why does the whining start when it is Merry Christmas?

I mentioned earlier (either in this thread or a related one) that this should be a non-issue: The point and purpose of giving someone a greeting is to greet them, not greet yourself. So you don't say, "Happy Hanukah" to a Christian, you don't say, "Merry Christmas" to a Hindu. Doing so is like going around on your birthday, saying, "Happy Birthday!" to everyone. It's unseemly, bordering on pathetic.

Unless you are in Nazi Germany, how exactly are you to know the religion of those you intend to greet?

why does the whining start when it is Merry Christmas?

It doesn't. It's the ridiculous, imaginary "war on christmas" that is the problem.

Unless you are in Nazi Germany, how exactly are you to know the religion of those you intend to greet?

Exactly. Maybe we should just grunt at everyone instead. Of course, that would then become part of the "war on christmas", wouldn't it? The whole thing is quite absurd.

Works both ways....why does the whining start when it is Merry Christmas?

Because people can't just let things go and realize that somebody is wishing them well.

So saying "Happy Holidays" is not wishing them well? And if it is why can they whine about it not being "Merry Christmas" and begin the "war on Christmas" bull@!$%#?

the "war on christmas" was brought about because people started saying "happy holidays". It distracted away from the Catholic/Christian/Protestant/Methodist "holiday".

This country has become the "Land of the Offended" more than the "Land of the Free". People just need to quit taking things so damn personal. Saying "Happy Holidays" or "Merry Christmas" is NOT an assault on anybody personally or their belief. Quit taking it as such.

Hmmm, I am not the one bitching because someone said "happy Holidays" instead of Merry Christmas... that would be the UMMMMM CHRISTIANS.

I'm not saying it's you.

In general people are getting offended by the most trivial things. Saying "Merry Christmas" or "Happy Holidays" are just two of the countless items out of a growing list of offensive sayings and offended groups.

The complaint is not someone saying happy holidays, it is business, people etc... telling people that they can't say merry Christmas....You say happy holidays if you want but I will say Merry Christmas.

Unless you are in Nazi Germany, how exactly are you to know the religion of those you intend to greet?

It's called "caring about other people". If you intend to greet them, then do the work to truly care about them instead of making excuses for being literally inconsiderate.

So saying "Happy Holidays" is not wishing them well?

This is what gets me about what I suspect is just disingenuous whining about not knowing the religious perspective of those who you intend to greet: "Happy Holidays" absolutely covers all bases. We have the luxury in this country, and in most of the world, to have the beginning of the New Year less than two weeks away. Practically everyone in this country can be counted upon to be eligible to receive a holiday greeting for, if nothing else, the New Year.

Folks need to stop trying to hide inconsideration behind vacuous denials of responsibility, and either be truly considerate, or if that is too much work, then acknowledge that by avoiding offense.

I had to visit WalMart yesterday and what a surprise for this time of year. No animated Santa to scare me at the entrance, no-no-no. No blaring music assaulting my ears. No disgusting red and green blinding my eyes. Not a "Merry Christmas" or "Happy Holidays" to be heard...anywhere. I got what I needed and left feeling better than any other time I've had to shop there. It was almost a pleasant visit.

Thanks for the tolerance.........and Merry Solstice to you

Feliz Navidad

Freedom of speech should cover this topic. Christmas time use to be a time where people became more united, I think this time of year being under attack for political and other gains is a sign of those who wish to divide the people rather then unite them are succeeding.

Well said, Julian!

Though I am not a christian, Merry Christmas.